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Torment Was Planescape: Torment really a commercial failure? Fallout sold fewer copies but got a sequel

ga♥

Arcane
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I know you struggle with English, but you do know that the blog post's date is in the link I provided and that the blog post provides the date of the sales data, right? I mean, you don't know what PC Data was, who Desslock was, why not bother reading and learning a little?

The blog post has a date. But the data has no date. Also the blog post starts with a huge warning on PC Data methods (that are not explained anyway) that you seem to dismiss or not to take that in consideration for some reason.
It has also already been pointed out to you that the sales data on that page are wrong for some games.

On a sidenote I do not know about PC Data and Desslock, and I didn't even know about the autorithy they seem to have.
I am sure you have plenty of links about Desslock and PC data methods (I couldn't find anything with google), otherwise you wouldn't trust that post so blindly.
So feel free to share some links and I will surely go read them.

If you look at any discussion of PS:T's sales figures from its release until present, none ever describe the game as a commercial success
mostly because people without clue, keep repeating it.

here's Gamespy listing it among its most underrated games of all time "because of poor sales"

exept ICO, first of the list, sold more than 700.000 copies alone :roll:

And they made a sequel.
 

MRY

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Where are you getting within a year?
The expansion was discontinued after the bundles were released. And assuming the numbers were roughly half of real sales, it sold around 312k in the US in that period. With sales from the rest of the world, 600k in a year or by the end of 2000 is not far off.
I would assume they included the bundle sales in the 600k figure. Why wouldn't they, if they were trying to inflate sales (which obviously they were).
 

MRY

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ga♥ said:
if you chose to believe a blogpost posted "somewhere in time" since you don't even know when it was posted
ga♥ said:
The blog post has a date. But the data has no date.
ga♥ said:
an obscure blogpost
Here's a summary of sales statistics for a variety of recent RPGs in the markets PC Data tracks, based upon data current to the end of March, 2000
???

Goalposts.

On a sidenote I do not know about PC Data and Desslock, and I didn't even know about the autorithy they seem to have.

Can you even into Google?
Based in Reston, VA, PC Data has been providing point-of-sale data since
1991 and has become the only comprehensive source of software and hardware
sales information. The company provides software and hardware vendors with
the point-of-sale data and analysis which forms the underpinning of their
strategic decision-making process. PC Data supplies sales information to more
than 800 software and hardware firms, which account for nearly 95 percent of
total computer industry sales.

As for Desslock, Stefan Janicki was probably the biggest name RPG reviewer in that period (CGW, PC Gamer, Gamespot, etc.).

exept ICO, first of the list, sold more than 700.000 copies alone :roll:
It's almost like you again don't know what the benchmarks are. Here's some more you could read: https://www.wired.com/2013/09/ico/
 

ga♥

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It's almost like you again don't know what the benchmarks are. Here's some more you could read: https://www.wired.com/2013/09/ico/

You may as well have pointed me out the wikipedia page where you found that article.

Anyway I am ejecting so here's a summary of MRY arguments:
1 - Blogpost say that, using apparently famous and revered PC DATA (bankrupt? no longer in business anyway), PS:T sold 73k units in the US market in the first three months of 2000. This is evidence that the game performed under expectations and the main reason we didn't get a successor so long wanted. The fact that said post was wrong on other titles is irrelevant (and Bioware was inflating the numbers including bundle sales according to him).
3 - PS:T was bundled 2 years after release, this means it didn't sell well, regardless of it being commong practice even with AAA games like the witcher 2.
4 - Common knowledge and everyone agreeing on it.
5 - The developers are spewing corporate talks AND/OR they have no clue because they have no access to financial data (MRY doesn't either AFAIK).

VS

1 - Three developers of the game itself declaring PST was commercialy succesful, including the ex-CEO of Black Isle (who surely had access to profits, expenses, sales, etc.).

I am sticking with who had real knowledge on how things went.
 

MRY

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1 - Three developers of the game itself declaring PST was commercialy succesful
Yes, such ringing success!
RPGWatch: Planescape: Torment was never developed to be a huge hit. How much involvement or interference was there from the suits of the company?
Chris Avellone: As far as being a huge hit, I think everyone wanted Torment to sell very well (it made a profit, but not a huge one, and certainly not anywhere near Baldur's Gate numbers).

Still, there were a number of elements that I think hurt it in the long run:

- Not an accessible setting. It's not a fantasy world that is comfortable for players to settle into, and we did not take pains to make it comfortable (no dwarves, elves, or halflings, as one minor example).

- Story-heavy in the wrong ways. It has a slow start, and while the momentum does pick up in the Hive, there's a lot of reading, and people don't buy games to read, they buy games to play them.

- Marketing. The box of the product reinforces #1 above - it says, "hey, we're strange," rather than promoting it as a role-playing game using the Baldur's Gate engine, which probably would have made it a more interesting target to the game community.
What a strange way to answer the question when in fact the game was a big success...

(That is one of your three developers, right?)
 
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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
In most circumstances "made a profit" = "commercially successful." We can quibble about degrees and nuances and exceptions, but that simple equations is true under most circumstances.
 

pippin

Guest
I do not know what the point of discussing sales numbers of PST is. The thing is that these games weren't living on their own. The trick was trying to outsell Diablo, and BG was the closest they were to do just that. I do not know how much it sold, but it did, and everyone (critics and gamers) loved it when it came out. Several RPG of the Year prizes were given to PST. And also PST had about the same media presence most big games had on their day, with full page ads and everything.
 

Vault Dweller

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In most circumstances "made a profit" = "commercially successful." We can quibble about degrees and nuances and exceptions, but that simple equations is true under most circumstances.
Many games are "profitable" in a sense that the revenues are greater than the investment, few games are commercially successful.

Here is an example. Both AoD and DR are "profitable" games but nobody would call them commercially successful games. I'm sure that AoD 2 would also be a profitable game but the kind of profit it might generate would most likely put us out of business, which is why we aren't working on it. Same with PST. It sold something but not enough to warrant another game (unlike Fallout or IWD).

The very fact that Avellone did two sequel drafts suggests that BIS was definitely considering it (and why wouldn't they?), but the game didn't sell enough and that was the end of it.
 

bloodlover

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Leaving aside the sales and profit debate, I'd add that the Fallout game saw a sequel because it was more accessible to players. Fallout 2 even went full goofball mode sometimes and move away from the core game, thus making less "rpg inclined" players easier to catch. The post apocalyptic setting was also more known, compared to the planes of PS:T. PS:T I feel is just too complicated for the usual player and I don't mean this in a derogatory way.
 
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In most circumstances "made a profit" = "commercially successful." We can quibble about degrees and nuances and exceptions, but that simple equations is true under most circumstances.

You need to consider two things here. First, the expression “commercially successful” is misleading, because it encompasses whether the game made a profit on release, or only after years on sale. If it is the second case, then it was commercially successful on a very limited sense of the word, especially if you consider the amount of investment, the huge payroll, etc. Second, being commercially successful in the second case implies that it was not a hit. So it seems that PS:T was neither a hit, neither commercially successful. It was a game that became a cult cRPG for a niche group and profitable along the years.
 

Neanderthal

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Ha currently runnin a pnp Planescape campaign wi me oppos, focused around Trias bein cast down from heaven for his crimes. As I remember PS:T went in bargain bin pretty quick here, bundled wi Fallout 2 for a fiver in Electronics Boutique in Meadowhall, think that were 2000.
 

Fairfax

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The very fact that Avellone did two sequel drafts suggests that BIS was definitely considering it (and why wouldn't they?), but the game didn't sell enough and that was the end of it.
He worked on design documents, but he never pitched them, so BIS/Interplay never got to call it off. That's just your confirmation bias.
 

Aenra

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AoD 2 would also be a profitable game but the kind of profit it might generate would most likely put us out of business

You mind explaining that? Not sure if you mean what i think you mean (expanding player base, stagnating, etc -> ITS future)
 
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BG sold well because of DnD license more than anything else. Fallout did not require a license. A studio can only make so many games so of course if they want to make money they will choose the one which did the best and did not need a license. The end.
 

Telengard

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If you want another anecdote, I picked up PST during the January clearance of its release year. For $15, in the bargain bin (technically it was $20, but I got another fiver off due to a damaged box).
 

Vault Dweller

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The very fact that Avellone did two sequel drafts suggests that BIS was definitely considering it (and why wouldn't they?), but the game didn't sell enough and that was the end of it.
He worked on design documents, but he never pitched them, so BIS/Interplay never got to call it off. That's just your confirmation bias.
I don't claim to know the inner workings of interplay or Black Isle but you don't write two design docs because you're bored and have nothing better to do.

BG sold well because of DnD license more than anything else. Fallout did not require a license. A studio can only make so many games so of course if they want to make money they will choose the one which did the best and did not need a license. The end.
Which explains why they started pumping out IWD games.

As for BG, sure, DnD license helped, but that wasn't the main driving factor. Back in 98 the game was stunningly beautiful, unlike anything the RPG players have ever seen, and stunning visuals always sell. It was also RTwP and easy to play, so you didn't have to be a DnD geek to get in. When ToEE was released offering the most faithful adaptation of the DnD ruleset, the #1 complaint wasn't the bugs or the overall design, but the complexity of the ruleset. The mainstream reviews created an impression that the game is for rocket scientists and unless you know DnD like the back of your hand you shouldn't even bother to understand it.

AoD 2 would also be a profitable game but the kind of profit it might generate would most likely put us out of business

You mind explaining that? Not sure if you mean what i think you mean (expanding player base, stagnating, etc -> ITS future)
The opposite, actually.

As you probably noticed a number of indie and not so indie sequels have done very poorly lately, selling anywhere from 10 to 30% of the original title - XCOM2, Banner's Saga 2, Legend of Grimrock 2, Blackguards 2, etc. My explanation of this phenomenon is that unless you have a AAA blockbuster with massive appeal, you don't go for a sequel because it would never sell as much as the original because the public perspective would be "it's more of the same".

Now, let's be optimistic and assume that the breakdown goes something like that (based on the reviews and impressions):

- core supporters - 25% - love it, want more
- core haters - 10% - fucking hate it, will never buy another ITS game again
- kinda liked it - 50% - liked it but ... This "but" ranges from minor to major issues
- meh - 15% - played for a couple of hours and moved on, no strong emotions, no urge to play more

So if we make AoD 2, we get the core supporters and some % of the kinda liked it camp. We'll also get some new players, probably no more than 20%. So our best case scenario is selling 3/4 of what AoD sold, worst case - less than half. Thus moving to a brand new setting with different systems but the same core design is the safest bet even though it looks like the riskiest.
 

ghostdog

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Everything is fucking relative. It's a question of how much it cost making the game and what are the expectations. Making Fallout probably cost less, because they had no royalties to pay for the engine, or for the setting. The expectations for sales were probably also much less. When Baldur's gate sold like hot cakes, the expectations for PST, which would use the same engine and another established D&D setting, rose much higher, so even if it made a bigger profit than Fallout it could be considered a commercial failure.

As the gaming market expands, expectations rise to the sky and sometimes are blown out of proportion. Nowadays games may sell 500K copies on the day of release, and that may be considered a flop. Games may bring a significant profit, but they may be considered financially unsuccessful because the investors expect much bigger profits.
 
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ga♥

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1 - Three developers of the game itself declaring PST was commercialy succesful
Yes, such ringing success!
RPGWatch: Planescape: Torment was never developed to be a huge hit. How much involvement or interference was there from the suits of the company?
Chris Avellone: As far as being a huge hit, I think everyone wanted Torment to sell very well (it made a profit, but not a huge one, and certainly not anywhere near Baldur's Gate numbers).

Still, there were a number of elements that I think hurt it in the long run:

- Not an accessible setting. It's not a fantasy world that is comfortable for players to settle into, and we did not take pains to make it comfortable (no dwarves, elves, or halflings, as one minor example).

- Story-heavy in the wrong ways. It has a slow start, and while the momentum does pick up in the Hive, there's a lot of reading, and people don't buy games to read, they buy games to play them.

- Marketing. The box of the product reinforces #1 above - it says, "hey, we're strange," rather than promoting it as a role-playing game using the Baldur's Gate engine, which probably would have made it a more interesting target to the game community.
What a strange way to answer the question when in fact the game was a big success...

(That is one of your three developers, right?)

I thought English was my problem. Noone said it was a big success.
Me (and others) think that:

Vault Dweller said:
[...]PST didn't sell "pretty well". It sold very poorly[...]

is wrong (using dev declarations as sources).

Why don't you ask Fargo, I have (unlike you) no problems changing my opinion eventually.
 
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Charles Eli Cheese

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Which explains why they started pumping out IWD games.

As for BG, sure, DnD license helped, but that wasn't the main driving factor. Back in 98 the game was stunningly beautiful, unlike anything the RPG players have ever seen, and stunning visuals always sell. It was also RTwP and easy to play, so you didn't have to be a DnD geek to get in. When ToEE was released offering the most faithful adaptation of the DnD ruleset, the #1 complaint wasn't the bugs or the overall design, but the complexity of the ruleset. The mainstream reviews created an impression that the game is for rocket scientists and unless you know DnD like the back of your hand you shouldn't even bother to understand it.

People aren't going to play a DnD game if they don't look for that, that is just reviewers being retards. TOEE had many problems, the first being it tried to shovel in an old DnD module of a simgle dungeon into a crpg which simply didn't work.
 

ga♥

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Many games are "profitable" in a sense that the revenues are greater than the investment, few games are commercially successful.

[...]
As an example, I told one of teams in late 1996 that it would be a good idea for us to make a game using Bioware's Infinity Engine, the Planescape license, to have the game based in Sigil (an area in the Planescape world) and to have the player go to at least two other "dimensions". The product that came out of that was Torment. Torment was totally different than the game that I expected, but it fulfilled what I had suggested to them and it was commercially successful.

Feargus Urquhart
- Black Isle CEO 2001

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3068/interview_with_black_isle_studios_.php?print=1
 

pippin

Guest
We are also forgetting that FO had a somewhat unorthodox start, which later grew into something bigger and then into a finished product. When it comes to brand recognition, though, some people were very expectant of what was supposed to be Wasteland 2. Comparing it with PST, Fallout had much less to lose... And the only point in which PST had harder times was its development. Dat moment when Guido Henkel just sighs when Matt Barton asks him about how was it to work with MCA is still funny to me.
 

Vault Dweller

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Many games are "profitable" in a sense that the revenues are greater than the investment, few games are commercially successful.

[...]
As an example, I told one of teams in late 1996 that it would be a good idea for us to make a game using Bioware's Infinity Engine, the Planescape license, to have the game based in Sigil (an area in the Planescape world) and to have the player go to at least two other "dimensions". The product that came out of that was Torment. Torment was totally different than the game that I expected, but it fulfilled what I had suggested to them and it was commercially successful.

Feargus Urquhart
- Black Isle CEO 2001

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3068/interview_with_black_isle_studios_.php?print=1
It's a CEO's (of a *public* company) job to assure the public that all products are commercially successful and everything is going great. Right until the moment Black Isle was closed down (I assume because its games were too commercially successful).
 

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