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StarCraft: Remastered

ArchAngel

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Except all of the things you want to change are not just "a bit of changes" but in fact enough of a change that it would totally alter the way the game is played and make it have very little resemblance to the original, to the point where it is not a "HD version" but basically a different game entirely. The base gameplay would absolutely not remain unchanged and if you think it does then I seriously think you need your dumbfuck tag back.
The most I would accept is to smooth out the unit pathing, support bigger monitors, allow hotkey rebinds and add natural support for certain glitches that're frequently used in leagues like mutalisk stacking and hold position lurkers. That's the fullest extent of what you can do to the game without losing everything that makes the game unique from its substantially inferior sequel.
You keep repeating that like a broken record but you have not explained how it would make it worse for average player.
EDIT: Or how keeping to that design specifically with no changes allowed would make BWHD a well liked game for anyone looking to play it that has not played Sc1 yet.

All you shown is that you and your special club of 2000 players (when you remove Korea from that number it is probably more like 100 players) want to keep everything exactly as it is. Well you know, nobody is going to take away BW and ICCUP.
 
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The average player before 2010 was perfectly capable of playing this game. The average player for today should just git gud and learn to play, plain and simple. If Brood War had SC2's league system we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion because you wouldn't have casuals going onto multiplayer matches and getting totally floored by gosu korean pros who felt like playing on USEast today. That might actually be one of the few things BW could do with that SC2 had.
 
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ArchAngel

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The average player before 2010 was perfectly capable of playing this game. The average player for today should just git gud and learn to play, plain and simple. If Brood War had SC2's league system we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion because you wouldn't have casuals going onto multiplayer matches and getting totally floored by pros. That might actually be one of the few things BW could do with that SC2 had.
Except BW has been losing players all the time and outside of Korea was already basically forgotten.
 
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Starcraft 2 has been slowly declining for 3 years now whilst Brood War (the way it was intended to be played in 1998) is presently making a professional comeback with three tournaments in the last 7 months that were all reasonably successful in terms of foreign viewers, so what's your point?
 

ArchAngel

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Starcraft 2 has been slowly declining for 3 years now whilst Brood War (the way it was intended to be played in 1998) is presently making a professional comeback with three tournaments in the last 7 months that were all reasonably successful in terms of foreign viewers, so what's your point?
My point is that I don't care for pro scene, and you are too dumb to understand that although I pointed in multiple posts I am talking about average players. BWHD is not being made for pro players, those have been playing basic BW for 20 years. It is being made for normal players. Get that into your thick head already.
 
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Those who are "Normal players" in your eyes want something that is not BW HD because it has ceased to even be Brood War, but is in fact just SC2 with a 1998 unit roster. So what's the point of even remastering the old games then? They might as well just do a legacy campaign pack for SC2 and not bother with anything else.

If the Homeworld Remaster was widely regarded by the HW community at launch as a shitty HW2 reskin and not a true remastering, I definitely would not consider our hypothetical BWHD to be a real HD edition either.
 
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It's also worth saying that this entire argument about making BW into SC2 in order to gain a new audience assumes that SC2 is even that commercially viable to begin with, let alone the RTS genre as a whole. Nobody actually wants to play real RTSes anymore. Even Starcraft 2, despite everything I've said about it, is still at least (at its heart) trying to be a Golden Age RTS. This means it still requires a great deal of dedication for you to be considered "good" at it, enough for most people to consider it daunting. When your average casual retard looks at this game and then looks at competing games like trannywatch and defence of legends/league of the ancients what do you honestly think they'll choose?
So, even the game you want to reskin and repackage as "Brood War HD" just isn't appealing to most people. The only way you could get mouthbreathers who suck at games to touch it is to make it as dumb as the new Dawn Of War game looks, which is to say you have to make Starcraft into an almost literal moba. If you're not going for that and are fine with just reskinning SC2 and selling it to already existing SC2 fans, then you're not actually expanding the fanbase in any way and so any efforts you make in that regard are basically worth nothing.
If all you want to get out there is BW's campaigns, then all I can say is that they are not anything like the multiplayer experience in terms of skill requirements. Even the average idiot who is only good at SC2 could beat them. Hell, I'd say SC2's campaigns were way harder than the ones in Brood War and if you were able to beat those you're definitely able to beat The Trump Card in 15 seconds.

I think a far safer decision if they decide to make a full game and not just release legacy campaigns for SC2, is for Blizzard to just increase BW's resolution and graphical fidelity (without going 3d), smooth the pathing, make a few glitches I mentioned earlier be natively supported, and give it a proper matchmaking system. The latter point is honestly enough to help the mouthbreathers get into it even without all of the QoL shit, since they're going to be playing primarily with people of the same skill level and so they won't feel as bad about sucking.
That way they don't drive a wedge through part of the community and they don't have two basically mechanically identical games competing with eachother (because people do still actively play SC2). There's a good reason they completely remade Starcraft from scratch when their first presentations of it gained the "Warcraft in space" response.
 
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ArchAngel

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If what you write is true, they got no reason to touch BW at all. And we will know soon if they did bother or if they are just doing some free promotion for BW during Sc2 finals.
 
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I quit Sc2 years ago and all other RTS I tried since were bad in one way or another.
Just play BW classic fam. I'm pretty terribad at the game since I'm on like 4-5 years of skill rust and I need practice partners who aren't trashtalking Chinese people on B.net 1.0

Edit: It is worth asking though... Why the hell would you want to play BWHD if it's just a reskin of a game you quit?
 

ArchAngel

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I quit Sc2 years ago and all other RTS I tried since were bad in one way or another.
Just play BW classic fam. I'm pretty terribad at the game since I'm on like 4-5 years of skill rust and I need practice partners who aren't trashtalking Chinese people on B.net 1.0

Edit: It is worth asking though... Why the hell would you want to play BWHD if it's just a reskin of a game you quit?
Well I am hoping it is not just a reskin. But other reason would be to get proper matchmaking and it working with modern windows without the need to fuck around with fixes and such.
 

Cowboy Moment

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nlimited unit selection and MBS would radically change the game. It's not something I'm pulling out of my ass, it's the truth. You're adding/modifying mechanics that weren't in the original that would completely change the way the game is played, creating new strategies and rendering others completely useless. It's not a good thing to do for a game that is 18 years old and is played by people who know everything there is to know about it and still come up with interesting tactics. It's just like if you changed chess so you can move all your pieces at once. MBS would allow players to create units en masse without having to manage their base at all except for building additional structures or assigning building to groups. You'd see a swift switch to micro management instead of the great balance between micro and macro that's in BW and that makes it so exciting.

Just FYI, I've both played and watched competitive BW/SC2 for many years now. And by, "played", I mean at a pretty decent level - B on iccup back in the day, and Master league in SC2. You can assume I have a clue about what I'm talking about and skip all the dumb chess comparisons and general platitudes.

Unlimited unit selection would make moments of panic much rarer and less prone to mistakes. This is when you see if a player is really good or not. Being able to control only 12 units per group has a huge impact when you're caught off-guard and have to retreat or move to another position. You have to move all your units the best you can to avoid heavy casualties. With unlimited selection you can just 1move and be done with it. Marine & Medic armies would move far more efficiently with unlimited selection and you would also be able to stim all your Marines at once instead of having to actually select them group by group and then stimming. Zerg players who play with Lurkers sometimes count on the Terran player to mess up moving their units out of the spines range. Same goes for Reaver drops into worker lines. You often have more than 12 workers in a base. Select them all and move them away and the Reaver attack is far less threatening all of a sudden. Psi Storms? Just move your whole army away from them instead of having to micro the units actually caught in the storm, which requires effort. While you're not micromanaging the rest of your army, the opponent could land another storm and you wouldn't have time to react. Storms behave rather differently in SC2 and are much faster to compensate for the unlimited selection. And also, like you said, MBS + unlimited selection would make Zerglings unstoppable unless there are massive balance changes, which would further change the game.

Also deathballs in themselves are not the problem. There are deathballs in BW as well. The crucial difference between the two however is that you can't move your deathball as one entity in BW while you can in SC2.

I really think you're confusing the effects of unlimited selection and pathing. The Marine/Medic point is somewhat valid, but only for the same reasons as the Crackling one - with unlimited selection, large armies of low-supply units would become easier to control. However, having a 60+ supply army in one control group doesn't help much at all in most of the situations you're describing, primarily because of BW's dreadful pathfinding.

In most situations, you don't *want* to stim all of your marines at once - with a large army you won't get more than half of them to attack at once anyway, and stim is very expensive. You don't *want* to select all of your workers in the event of a Reaver drop - it'll just bunch them up, making it easier for the Reaver to score a big hit; good players don't even do this in SC2 vs mine or hellion drops, because it's not effective. You're not aiming at losing no workers, you're aiming at the scarab hitting a single worker. The idea of moving out of a psi storm by selecting your whole army and clicking away is simply laughable, your units would trip over each other while still standing in the storm area of effect - you don't normally use control groups for dodging storm, or plague, or any aoe effect, because it's much more reliable to quickly select what you need and move it manually.

Let's look at deathballs for a second. The proverbial BW deathball is Terran mech. Does having a 80+ supply mech army in one control group really change much? You still need to leapfrog your tanks. You still need to control Vultures separately and manually lay mines. You still need to ensure a nice Goliath spread on your frontline to avoid drops and other tomfoolery. So what exactly changes? If you just want to move an army across the map, you do 1a instead of 1a2a3a4a.

Putting aside potential balance problems with Cracklings and Terran Bio, I feel like the most these changes would do is provide an accessible "good enough" option for more casual players. One of the problems of BW is how high the initial barrier of entry is - the game is not that difficult to play after you train yourself to take care of all the APM-intensive busywork, but before that, it just feels like shit.

For the record, I think BW is the best competitive RTS of all time, and massively superior to SC2, not because of UI specifics, but because of the excellent unit design and economy balance (and also maps, but those aren't on Blizzard). At the very minimum, I'd be very interested to see how it would play with a modernized UI.

Stop being a casual compstomping retard and learn to play.

It's been a while since I've played either game competitively, but back in the day I've made it to B on iccup, and sat in Master league in SC2 for multiple seasons with both Protoss and Zerg. So, I feel like I've learned to play pretty decently, but if you want this discussion to have a higher barrier of entry, please let us know what your personal definition of l2p is.

Incidentally, you seem very upset about even fairly innocuous QoL changes like automining (manually directing workers is nothing but an APM sink in BW). Do you actually play the game competitively, on Fish or wherever the current (non)official league resides, that it bothers you so? Automining wouldn't even really affect pro-level games, since those players never really fail at doing it manually. Or are you just butthurt in principle about any kind of change to BW?
 
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As I mentioned before, HD almost certainly means vastly increasing the view area of the game. That alone will probably be enough to make the game inviting to newcomers, since maintaining good spacial awareness of things on the map is one of those skills that actually takes a long time to train.

Automining is sensible. MBS and infinite unit select much less so. MBS just takes too much of the work away from macro and lets you focus 95% on micro. Infinite unit select breaks the game with mutalisks.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
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As I mentioned before, HD almost certainly means vastly increasing the view area of the game. That alone will probably be enough to make the game inviting to newcomers, since maintaining good spacial awareness of things on the map is one of those skills that actually takes a long time to train.

Automining is sensible. MBS and infinite unit select much less so. MBS just takes too much of the work away from macro and lets you focus 95% on micro. Infinite unit select breaks the game with mutalisks.

Funnily enough, changing the display resolution is likely to change the game more than either MBS or infinite unit select. Also, unlimited unit select will at best let you do Muta micro with a larger group - which does buff them, but doesn't negate the reasons why Mutas are a only a midgame strategy in any matchup that isn't ZvZ (now that I think about it, unlimited unit selection may make ZvZ even more retarded, which is quite an accomplishment).
 
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Funnily enough, changing the display resolution is likely to change the game more than either MBS or infinite unit select.

It will change the game in favor of larger-front actions, which is arguably OK and makes for a more interesting game.

Also, unlimited unit select will at best let you do Muta micro with a larger group - which does buff them, but doesn't negate the reasons why Mutas are a only a midgame strategy in any matchup that isn't ZvZ (now that I think about it, unlimited unit selection may make ZvZ even more retarded, which is quite an accomplishment).

You have to keep in mind that stacked Mutalisks' power goes up essentially with the square of their number. The more you have, the better (non-AoE) damage is distributed, causing the Muta to survive better and snowball their number harder. So 15 stacked muta isn't 50% more powerful than 10, it's more like 100%. Plenty of BW games are decided in the midgame.
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
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So it seems, this was really coming all along.. people butthurt and rumours, but yea, I knew this was coming.

Also, Diablo 2 is 100 % also coming for a HD remake, there's no doubt now. Since back in the day, Blizz wanted new engineers for both D2, Starcraft AND Warcraft 3.

Seems to be the year of remasters for blizz :)

"Now that StarCraft: Remastered is announced, we want to think about classic Blizzard games as a service, and to that end we’re primarily focused on StarCraft for now," Stilwell said. "We don’t have announcements to make about other classic games at this time."

Yeah, not as this time.. of course they are already in production :)
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
Patron
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
5,104
Gotta rekindle that Korean pro gaming scene somehow, I guess. I wonder what they'll do about the old cinematics and campaign briefings.
 

Makabb

Arcane
Shitposter Bethestard
Joined
Sep 19, 2014
Messages
11,753
Diablo 2 when ?
 

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