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Interview Torment: Tides of Numenera Postmortem Interview with Colin McComb and Adam Heine at Eurogamer

Jarpie

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Codex 2012 MCA
Oh, I agree, but they tried to recreate PS:T, and replicate what made it special, instead of trying to create something new.

No, they didn't. You can read about the differences in this post.

wtf, I said they TRIED to recreate PS:T, like "Hey, let's make a great and deep rpg as PS:T with similar themes and shit, like we did when we were young!", not that they created you dolt.
 

l3loodAngel

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Despite being a tiny studio High-level managers are too isolated from general production staff, often going weeks without meaningful interactions with the people and projects they are supposed to manage.

And people have mentioned that T:TON seems to have lacked someone with a strong vision overseeing things. But what's interesting is comparing this to the complaint about Kevin Saunders that "someone" (I guess Brother None) told Infinitron - that Saunders "ran Torment like his own private fiefdom." It's kind of a strange complaint to make about a project director, similar to "my boss is always telling me what to do." But maybe that's the InXile culture - everyone does their own thing, and if you try to enforce some kind of creative vision or quality control on a project they'll get pissed and talk shit about you the next time Fargo invites them out to beer. Then you'll get replaced by a "team player."

Again, the description of Saunders running the project like his own private fiefdom is my interpretation of what Brother None told me. It's not what he actually said.

Brother None said that Kevin Saunders was totally in charge of Torment and he absolutely didn't think that was a bad thing. He liked Torment's management style more than he liked Wasteland 2's management style.

My intention in interpreting it the way I did was to emphasize that the Torment project was never in Brian Fargo's orbit in the same way that Wasteland 2 was. It was not a "Team Fargo" game, it was a "Team Saunders" game.
That's biggest load of shit I have read in a long time. If anything inXile lacked fucking management and thus the result. Multiple changes to the project, unifinished stuff everywhere and no coherence are SIGNS of bad management or a complete lack of it. How hard is to go through ~20 people and talk about their work, progress and shit once a month? The blame goes on all senior management for not doing their job and banging interns during the work hours.

Three fucking questions asked constantly during the development would have solved this shit. What are you doing? How is going? How is this going to make the game better?

Fucking spoiled and entitled millennials... the next project that's gonna give these spoiled monkeys so much freedom again is going to end in the same dumpster fire.
 
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Sprout

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Torment is one of the greats and what makes it so is the writing, which pretty much carries the whole game. You people babble on about management and shit while imo ignoring the fact that the quest to replicate PST was flawed to begin with.
Both games are carried by their writing as that's the main activity you're going to be engaged in throughout the width of the game. If you can't get yourself to read that stuff the rest is irrelevant. Numenera's mistake was to think it could rely on the strength of it's writing to wing it at the expense of everything else PST style, while under the illusion it was some kind of virtue. (It's not).
 
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Lurker King

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wtf, I said they TRIED to recreate PS:T, like "Hey, let's make a great and deep rpg as PS:T with similar themes and shit, like we did when we were young!", not that they created you dolt.

But they didn’t. Their approach to development, writing, quest design, level design, and promotion of the game makes it clear they didn’t give a fuck about PS:T or what made it special. PS:T's narrative was mysterious, while ToNs vomit the whole story right at the beginning and then give you a tutorial; PS:T main story is tied to the game world, companions, and quests; but ToN main story is dissociated from the game world, companions and quests; PS:T's writing was suggestive, but ToN's writing is patronising. These are fundamental differences that reflect lack of respect for PS:T. The truth is that they used Torment’s name to cash in on the nostalgia, tried to make something else and failed in the process.
 

Sprout

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But they didn’t. Their approach to development, writing, quest design, level design, and promotion of the game makes it clear they didn’t give a fuck about PS:T or what made it special. PS:T's narrative was mysterious, while ToNs vomit the whole story right at the beginning and then give you a tutorial; PS:T main story is tied to the game world, companions, and quests; but ToN main story is dissociated from the game world, companions and quests; PS:T's writing was suggestive, but ToN's writing is patronising. These are fundamental differences that reflect lack of respect for PS:T. The truth is that they used Torment’s name to cash in on the nostalgia, tried to make something else and failed in the process.
People fuck shit up all the time. The problem with what you just wrote is that you go searching for nefarious reasons for it when it's merely commonplace mediocrity.
 
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Lurker King

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Itz funny that MCA wishes PS:T had less "vomits of text" then they made a spiritual sequel that is all EXTREME vomits of text.

niGshNw.jpg


Who gives a fuck about game history, amrite?
 

MrBuzzKill

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Itz funny that MCA wishes PS:T had less "vomits of text" then they made a spiritual sequel that is all EXTREME vomits of text.

niGshNw.jpg

Who gives a fuck about game history, amrite?

Who is this?

Also, can you stop outright lying and exaggerating about the game?

ToNs vomit the whole story right at the beginning

No, it does not.

main story is dissociated from the game world, companions and quests

Again, a lie. Almost everything you do in the game is tied together. It's weird I even have to explain this. Most of the companions (except Rhin, for a reason) have something to say about your being a Castoff and comment on the events happening while you try to uncover who you are and how you can escape the loop. The game world is wrapping around the main story, almost everywhere you go and everyone you talk to has at least some association, direct or indirect, with the Changing god and his castoffs. "Main story dissociated from quests"? Pure bullshit, in fact the opposite is true. For instance,
The Ghostly woman starts out as a side quest and gradually turns out to be greatly tied into the main story

Once again, I think the greatest flaw of this game is its lack of content and possibly reactivity. I'm positive if they did a lot more (and I don't mean "more text"), people wouldn't be nearly as pissed. People didn't get the chance to immerse themselves in the game world due to the game being too short, ending up bitter and trying to find faults in other places (and as RPGCodex knows, one will find faults anywhere if they want to find them).
 
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In fairness, it's really fucking bizarre how the Codex hivemind forgot that it spent a solid 18 months raving about how 'more text' was a key requirement of good crpgs, and shitting on Bioware for saying that they wanted to minimise writing, and that this wasn't what 'show don't tell' means (which is true), and how much they missed the text descriptions when you click on stuff because it conveys stuff that visuals can't communicate, and kids these days are awful because they lack the patience for reading and....
 

KILLER BEAR

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In fairness, it's really fucking bizarre how the Codex hivemind forgot that it spent a solid 18 months raving about how 'more text' was a key requirement of good crpgs

Maybe because the hivemind is always fragmented when it comes to PST.
 

l3loodAngel

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In fairness, it's really fucking bizarre how the Codex hivemind forgot that it spent a solid 18 months raving about how 'more text' was a key requirement of good crpgs, and shitting on Bioware for saying that they wanted to minimise writing, and that this wasn't what 'show don't tell' means (which is true), and how much they missed the text descriptions when you click on stuff because it conveys stuff that visuals can't communicate, and kids these days are awful because they lack the patience for reading and....
Man, I remeber when your posts were interesting and full of thought... Those days are long past it seems. More quality text, not more bits and pieces from different articles and decriptions of what you actually see. Not something in a vein of Captain Obvious:
- You see a man walking in a desert towards the horizon, his uniform old and torn, one of his arms is bandaged with bandage that's already dirty where the uniform is missing and the gun is in the holster, but his head is lowered. There are dry bushes everywhere and you can see some mountains on the horizon, which are not very high. (High Five team)
upload_2017-3-20_10-20-44.png
 
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Joined
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In fairness, it's really fucking bizarre how the Codex hivemind forgot that it spent a solid 18 months raving about how 'more text' was a key requirement of good crpgs, and shitting on Bioware for saying that they wanted to minimise writing, and that this wasn't what 'show don't tell' means (which is true), and how much they missed the text descriptions when you click on stuff because it conveys stuff that visuals can't communicate, and kids these days are awful because they lack the patience for reading and....

That's gotta be the laziest bait i'v seen in a long time.

Great artist are always capable to reproduce their genius and have not just one hit, because they understand the art.

Bullshit. Ability to create Good Shit is a limited and non-renewable resource. What we call "great artists" just had a bit more creative mana points to spend on more than one "hit". It still doesn't regenerate when they sleep, and blue potions don't really help (nor do yellow or transparent, there are persistent rumors about the green variety though, but I believe it to be urban myth).

Great artists are never satisfied with their work, when complacency takes hold shit like TTON ends up happening

-1:26:50 Would you do anything differently? Short answer: nope!
 

FeelTheRads

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Did they really say that or is it out of the context? How the hell can you say that when you already said you want to add back cut content?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Did they really say that or is it out of the context? How the hell can you say that when you already said you want to add back cut content?

"Short answer". :M

I recommend people listen to the audio for themselves. Jokzore has helpfully provided a timestamp.
 

FeelTheRads

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I recommend people listen to the audio for themselves. Jokzore has helpfully provided a timestamp.

I asked because I don't want to listen and it felt like something out of context. It's still an answer that shows a great lack of self awareness. Whatever the long answer was, if there was any, it means they think their work was great overall, with just a few mishaps, which is definitely not the case.
Then again, corporate standard answers will be corporate standard answers.

What? Please do provide examples of patronising writing.

I'm not sure what he's referring to, but I can tell you that at every step there is some description telling you things your character shouldn't have any business knowing. And instead of describing something in a way that suggests "weirdness" the game will often resort to basically "this is weird/alien/undescribable lolol".

So yeah.
 
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Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I haven't listened to it myself, but my experience is that when game developers are asked that question in interviews, they usually reply with something along the lines of "Yes, given the circumstances and information we had at the time, we probably would have done basically the same things".

Ie, not a claim of a perfect development cycle but that it was a series of reasonable "It seemed like a good idea at the time" decisions.
 

MrBuzzKill

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never satisfied with their work
Colin McComb said that in his recent lets play of PS:T. He said there were always more things to add and iterate but there's a point where you have to get the thing out the door already.

More quality text, not more bits and pieces from different articles and decriptions of what you actually see. Not something in a vein of Captain Obvious:
- You see a man walking in a desert towards the horizon, his uniform old and torn, one of his arms is bandaged with bandage that's already dirty where the uniform is missing
You
PlanescapeTorment09.jpg
were
695421-planescape-torment-windows-screenshot-outdoor-area-in-the.png
saying?
Screenshot_2015-10-11_13.45.42.png
 
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l3loodAngel

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never satisfied with their work
Colin McComb said that in his recent lets play of PS:T. He said there were always more things to add and iterate but there's a point where you have to get the thing out the door already.

More quality text, not more bits and pieces from different articles and decriptions of what you actually see. Not something in a vein of Captain Obvious:
- You see a man walking in a desert towards the horizon, his uniform old and torn, one of his arms is bandaged with bandage that's already dirty where the uniform is missing
You
PlanescapeTorment09.jpg
were
695421-planescape-torment-windows-screenshot-outdoor-area-in-the.png
saying?
Screenshot_2015-10-11_13.45.42.png

Listen if you see that Dak'kon has traveled everywhere, is old, has scars and has that strange shimmering blade from this SS I cannot help you. It describes a seasoned and mysterious warrior with a mysterious weapon and increases the desire to have him in your party.

With the prostitute it's the same. The game actually gives you valuable information and descriptions suit a purpose. Smells expensive parfume, tells about her make-up, that she is smilling and compares her to the prostitutes from the part other of the town. The information highlights the difference between living standards in different parts of the town. Also creates atmosphere. Gives you information you may not know like about the brothel. The third SS is the same...

As opposed to: "you wake up in hole you made and you broke some equipment" which you kinda see. Or that you are falling and engulfed in memories, which kinda is unnecessary. Ask anyone who fell from high altitude. You don't ponder why are falling if you know you are going to make a large splash soon. I believe it would be more natural to think how to avoid dying, your instincts and everything.
 
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Prime Junta

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Of course making a good game is hard. Of course it takes a lot of people.

But then, you know, a movie production is hard and takes a lot of people too, yet somehow they manage to make movies that look like they were made by someone, not a committee. A Coen Brothers film looks like a Coen Brothers film, as does a Spielberg film, Tarantino film, or Peter Jackson film. Even if they fuck up. The Hobbit films are obvious Peter Jackson fuckups, not made-by-committee fuckups.

That's what's missing in T:ToN (and lots of other games too): the feeling of a coherent vision. It's a potluck, not a set dinner.

(Which is why I'm lovin' Battle Brothers so much. That's a game that knows exactly what it wants to be, and does a fine, fine job of doing it.)
 
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Lurker King

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What does it mean suggestive writing ?

What? Please do provide examples of patronising writing.

The difference is that in PS:T’s writing you have a narrative suggestion that is subtly presented in order to entice you to explore the game world to find more about yourself. “Dude, you just woke up in a fucking mortuary. There is something written on your back. It seems you are a fucking corpse? What the hell happened to you?”. That's suggestive writing, because a lot of interesting things are suggested to you, but you need to discover them by yourself. In T:ToN you are railroaded by a shitty premise, which gives you no motivation to care about the character or the game world. “Hey player, you are a castoff of the Changing God. Everyone in the game world knows that you are a castoff, because they are common as dirt. You need to fix that machine to move forward”. It’s patronizing in the sense that treats the player as a retard that can’t play cRPGs and needs the narrative premise to be simplistic and spoon-fed to him. DeepOcean explained this better than me in other thread:

Okay, replayed Planescape Torment about a year ago, it is still fresh on my mind so I can make a comparison. The major differences in terms of writing is that Planescape: Torment worries with where the player is at that moment and what the player sees. NumaNuma worries with where the player should go and pay little attention with where he is, it is more interested into pushing the player into the plot while Planescape Torment has its plot around the player for him to discover. One only cares into pushing the player foward and the other is more passive trying to lure the player on its mistery first, one has patience and the other doesn't, one cares about the player, the other cares about the plot.

I dunno if this is a question of talent or that game designers now work on their niche and writers on their other little niche like Infinitron said, NumaNuma worries alot about informing the player while Planescape Torment worries alot about luring the player and on the process inform him very, very slowly, on a much more passive way.

There are huge differences on those approaches, on Planescape Torment, for example, you find a major character that is later central to he plot on the Mortuary, Deionarra, you can find her out of your organic exploration, there is nothing guiding you to her and pushing you forward, the only goal is to leave the Mortuary, same you can find there one of the companions of your past and see at first hand how you were ruthless.

You unravel things and the player only come to know things out of his exploration, the characters only give you fragmented information based on their points of view. I remember when I first played and the Nameless one wake up on the mortuary, you only know you wrote a message to yourself on your back on a certain desperate tone, that you need to find Pharod and Morte while being helpful and sympathetic, it isn't being 100% honest with you for some reason.

Right after you wake up, you have the whole Mortuary, a weird place, you get to know of the Dustmen and how they see death, what is something extremely important as the Mortuary is the place you are going to be returning with a certain frequency. After you are done exploring the Mortuary, you had an awesome introduction not only to the setting but to your condition right of the bat. You won't have much in terms of exposition of what happened but you get learn alot about where you are right now.

Later on, this tendency of giving the player just a little prod on a direction and let him figure out the details was really well done. You go exploring not only to see side content but get to learn about yourself, like when you go to that tavern on Planescape Torment and meet Ignus and Dakkon, you feel you need to explore not to only consume content on a mindless way but that each location might have some tiny clue about you.

It is said that on videogames, the player is the king, this can be grossly misunderstood as the need to pander the player and threat him like a capricious child that need validation but if this is ignored and you as a writer is more worried about your grand story and not much how the player experiences it, this isn't good too.

On Numanuma, your situation is clear from the start and there is little for you to discover exploring. I got surprised how optional the entire content on Sagus is and how quickly you get to know everything you need to know and are pushed on the next location. The plot is in such a hurry to give you information and push you forward. You get to know who the Changing God is, who the Sorrow is, the castoffs and all of that on the first 10 mins of the game that the rest of Sagus Cliff is kinda irrelevant and you only explore it to level up and consume side content.

Worse, they give you exposition on Sagus Cliff about things that will only be relevant much later while they pay little attention to where the player actually is, the Sagus city itself. There is no decent introduction where you are, no decent introduction towards the setting and its rules, too much exposition that could be easily delayed for when it is relevant but is regurgited to the player when the player could care less and wish to know more about the place he is.
 
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