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RTwP is salvageable

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Sacred82

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So I recently started a replay of Ultima VII. When I played it 20 years ago I didn't mind the combat much, except for a certain randomness that could have you dying against a wolf while having slaughtered a group of swordsmen just moments before.

Going in now I was pretty sure I would have a horrible time, since I had actually bashed its combat system before (on theoretical grounds). Suffice to say I didn't mind the combat at all. In contrast to later RTwP titles, you can only micromanage so much during pause, that is you can set a different AI behaviour but you can't directly issue orders. And compared to a turn based title like Ultima VI, the real time combat really seems to contribute to the simulation - more than in modern RTwP titles, and assumably because of the low level of control.

Still the combat felt boring and shallow quickly, and probably due to the lack of options you have, overall. Enter a game I've played about 2 years ago on the PSP, Valhalla Knights 2. In VK2 (I've never played 1), battles are over so quickly, you can't micromanage much even though you'd theoretically have the option to do so. This is different to how battles work in VK3 btw, so I don't know how much of it was intentional. Anyway, in VK2, most combat work is done outside of combat, as you have plenty of options of character and party buildung and behaviour customization. Success in combat mostly depends on how you set up your party beforehand, and not on input during combat. I feel this is the best, if not only, way RTwP combat really comes into its own and be on par with TB. It's not intrusive, it's comfy, and yet it gives the player things to do and think about.

On a final note, I realize that from IE onwards, scripting does a lot of what I just said. But I think RTwP games that have optional scripting aren't ideal. Combat resolution still takes a lot of time and the player will still want to watch the action closely, while not actually taking action most of the time. Also it takes quite a bit of time until you have a feeling for the game and can come up with scripts that don't take a lot of babysitting.
 
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Sacred82

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To clarify, could be that VK2 is RT, not RTwP, I actually can't remember right now. Anyway it doesn't make much difference when combat is over so fast some characters may not even get the chance to act.
 

deuxhero

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Only queuing up unit commands for an otherwise real time game is acceptable. Trying to marry artificial turns into the equation is a disaster.
 

Agesilaus

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Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
If you want to see Ultima 7's combat done well, check out Teudogar. It looks like U7 but a little less colourful and has a much, much better combat system.
 

Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal

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No.

Turn-based = good (if it's done well).

Real-time = good (if it's done well).

RTwP = shit (always).

/thread
 

Moink

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I only bothered to read the thread title and the answer is "no it isn't don't be silly"
 

Alkarl

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Play (a real game: ) Pool of Radiance, The Magic Candle, Ultima 5, Fallout, X-com, etc and get back to us.

Ultima 7 would still be Ultima 7 without the combat, that's the important thing to take away. It's honestly closer to an adventure game than an rpg.

Also:
Success in combat mostly depends on how you set up your party beforehand, and not on input during combat. I feel this is the best, if not only, way RTwP combat really comes into its own and be on par with TB.

That's just fucking insulting.
 

J1M

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RTwP is just a cheat code and a shitty UI rolled together. The worst possible combination.

Even something like Ogre Battle is preferable, where you have no control over units once the battle starts. (There is still a game in logistics and strategy, unit composition, formation, etc. The part that is removed is the tedious input.)
 

Whiny-Butthurt-Liberal

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Only thing worse than RTwP is the "rest" button.

Oh hay, just press this shiny button and all your characters' health, mana, spellpoints, wellness, stamina, and all other attributes are instantly restored! Oh wait, that's too powerful, we need to start injecting cumbersome and counter-intuitive nuisances to keep players from using the MAGIC CHEAT CODE RESET BUTTON too often...

Meanwhile, actual D&D has very specific rules on how much health/whatever can be restored per rest, what kinds of areas are suitable for resting, how often it's feasible to rest (not very) and what significant risks can happen when the party rests in an unknown area. There's no "all stats back to max" cheat-code in the table-top system, at least as far as I'm aware.

Retarded. Forget the Infinity engine era. Let it die. Its horrible design choices need to stay in the past.

Let. It. Die.
 

Lostpleb

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I'm feeling a little masochistic right now so I'm going to go ahead and say that Turn-based games tend to age poorly, unless there is an auto-resolve option for combat. Games like Ogre Battle and Age of Wonders are still enjoyable to this day because the meat of the game happens in real time or phase, while most of the tedious can be skipped.

Turn-based systems shine once we start heading deeper into the tactical sub-genre, where each battle can take up to a few minutes to load and is more akin to a large scenario. Those games are pretty rare though.
 
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Lilura

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Only thing worse than RTwP is the "rest" button.

Oh hay, just press this shiny button and all your characters' health, mana, spellpoints, wellness, stamina, and all other attributes are instantly restored! Oh wait, that's too powerful, we need to start injecting cumbersome and counter-intuitive nuisances to keep players from using the MAGIC CHEAT CODE RESET BUTTON too often...

Meanwhile, actual D&D has very specific rules on how much health/whatever can be restored per rest, what kinds of areas are suitable for resting, how often it's feasible to rest (not very) and what significant risks can happen when the party rests in an unknown area. There's no "all stats back to max" cheat-code in the table-top system, at least as far as I'm aware.

Retarded. Forget the Infinity engine era. Let it die. Its horrible design choices need to stay in the past.

Let. It. Die.

But it's not the Infinity Engine that is at fault in this respect; it's EZ to flag an AR as no-rest and give logical in-game reasons for why it's disallowed. It's only the campaign designers who didn't concertedly enforce rest restrictions.

RTWP is awesome.

I do agree with the fact that CRPG 'rest' rules are almost uniformly too generous.

Yep, which is another reason Swordflight is so great.
 
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Urbanolo

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The only really good RtwP system I know is PoE 3.0 (and IWD 2 or modded BG 2 to a certain degree), the rest oscilates between complete utter disaster (Darklands, Tyranny) and palatable but mindless (BG 1).

I'm not counting 7.62 high caliber, since I haven't played it.
 

Severian Silk

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Nexus The Jupiter Combat had pretty good RTwP combat.

Also, I like how in SimCity you have varying amounts of time. You can stop, speed up, slow down, etc.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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RTwP is the only system which, most of the time, allows for tactical manoeuvring across the entire map. Some turn-based games probably do, but the default of turn-based is usually to lock you into some form of grid, or, worse still, root you to the spot. [Another reason the ToEE system is considered a superior version of TB as it combined TB with complete map freedom, but it's a rarity. Some jRPGs have this more so than wRPGs].

Full real time has little use of strategic manoeuvring because by the time you've moved all your characters everything has caught up already. Its why full party control doesn't exist in real time games because without a pause it's a redundant concept [some blobbers excluded, obv, but here you can't split your party to make tactical manoeuvring relevant beyond 'dancing'].

But to be honest I have no idea why some people feel the need to rage on one specific system. All of the possible ways to provide combat have their upsides and downsides of which the main issue is how its implemented, whether its a quality implementation of the system. Having a personal bias against one system against all others is just personal bias, it's no evidence that one system is better then another.
 
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Sacred82

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RTwP is the only system which, most of the time, allows for tactical manoeuvring across the entire map. Some turn-based games probably do, but the default of turn-based is usually to lock you into some form of grid, or, worse still, root you to the spot. [Another reason the ToEE system is considered a superior version of TB as it combined TB with complete map freedom, but it's a rarity. Some jRPGs have this more so than wRPGs].

I don't think it works very well in RTwP games that require lots of micromanagement though. There's a reason why people stayed locked down in combat in PoE.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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RTwP is the only system which, most of the time, allows for tactical manoeuvring across the entire map. Some turn-based games probably do, but the default of turn-based is usually to lock you into some form of grid, or, worse still, root you to the spot. [Another reason the ToEE system is considered a superior version of TB as it combined TB with complete map freedom, but it's a rarity. Some jRPGs have this more so than wRPGs].

I don't think it works very well in RTwP games that require lots of micromanagement though. There's a reason why people stayed locked down in combat in PoE.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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Sacred82

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RTwP is the only system which, most of the time, allows for tactical manoeuvring across the entire map. Some turn-based games probably do, but the default of turn-based is usually to lock you into some form of grid, or, worse still, root you to the spot. [Another reason the ToEE system is considered a superior version of TB as it combined TB with complete map freedom, but it's a rarity. Some jRPGs have this more so than wRPGs].

I don't think it works very well in RTwP games that require lots of micromanagement though. There's a reason why people stayed locked down in combat in PoE.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

The original design was to allow for dynamic battlefield navigation. After they got the feedback that most players just have their party staying locked down in combat things were changed, e.g. many spells had friendly fire removed.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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RTwP is the only system which, most of the time, allows for tactical manoeuvring across the entire map. Some turn-based games probably do, but the default of turn-based is usually to lock you into some form of grid, or, worse still, root you to the spot. [Another reason the ToEE system is considered a superior version of TB as it combined TB with complete map freedom, but it's a rarity. Some jRPGs have this more so than wRPGs].

I don't think it works very well in RTwP games that require lots of micromanagement though. There's a reason why people stayed locked down in combat in PoE.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

The original design was to allow for dynamic battlefield navigation. After they got the feedback that most players just have their party staying locked down in combat things were changed, e.g. many spells had friendly fire removed.

Ok?

So that particular system didn't work towards the biggest factor which makes RTwP an interesting concept. So that's an example of a poorer implementation of a system? No? I have no idea what micromanagement has to do with it, sounds like it was the engagement system that caused this? No?
 

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