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Game News Torment: Tides of Numenera Released

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Sacred82

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So, in the end, POE > T:ToN or T:ToN > POE ??

T:ToN has better writing, better locations, and more scripted skill use. Character building may be on part with PoE but party customization isn't. The combat may actually be worse.

It's not that T:ToN is a much better game, but it's definitely a less offensive one. And it has the potential to grow much more with one or two expansions than PoE did.
 

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Steam reviews are at 73% now... Yesterday was 74, day before that 76... at launch it was - what now looks like a beautiful unreachable dream - a shining 81%. I'm noticing a trend here.

Perhaps the most awaited game of the decade, well in CRPGs at least... and they had over 2 years extra time to put it out. Such a shame. Well to be fair, it's not a complete failure I guess because the magazines didn't score it that bad. But it sure ain't a success either.
 

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to be fair, it's not a complete failure I guess because the magazines didn't score it that bad
If the not-close-to-perfect "professional" review scores are all Numenera has as a sign of non-failure, it spells real trouble.
 

Darth Roxor

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That's literally the one and only time I've seen the game aknowledge and/or reference the character's dominant Tide.

Naw, I remember it did that sorta frequently in Sagus, you just gotta read between the lines and look for the obvious clues. My dominant tide was silver, and various folks would say all sorts of stuff like ZOMG I'VE HEARD ABOUT YUO or ZOMG YOUR EGO IS LEGENDARY.
 
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BTW: someone said that TTON has no humor, I think it was on steam forums, it's not true, it has, but it's more of a dark humor.

Yeah, I liked small humorous bits the most, eg. that old cannibal guy saying "Take care. Take GREAT care" when you leave.

Or when Rhin says "I'm so sorry" when she kills someone in combat.

Or the guy who sell you modifications to your body.
He's believe in honest approach to his customers.
The dialog with him is absolutely awesome and funny!
 
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Steam reviews are at 73% now... Yesterday was 74, day before that 76... at launch it was - what now looks like a beautiful unreachable dream - a shining 81%. I'm noticing a trend here.

Most positive reviews are either one liners or bigger reviews with few hours of gameplay that were obviously made in a hurry because Colin McComb was asking for help.

Perhaps the most awaited game of the decade, well in CRPGs at least... and they had over 2 years extra time to port to consoles. Such a shame.

Fixed.

So, in the end, POE > T:ToN or T:ToN > POE ??

PoE has character progression, things to do and enemies to kill. It's all bad, but at least you have some gameplay in it. What does ToN have? Nothing but walls of overdescriptive text and a bad narrative premise dissociated from gameplay. I was able to finish PoE, but I can't play ToN any longer, and I tried three times.

Since Dungeon Siege III is better than Pillars of Eternity, and Pillars of Eternity is better than Tides of Numenera, we can conclude that Dungeon Siege III is better than Tides of Numenera.
 

Darkzone

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Sorry i'm late to the party, but nevertheless i will write something that might be for some people interesting and for others shit.

Correct me if I am wrong, but RTwP DnD is a system based on rolls, but computer calculates them faster. Thus, the rules are DnD, but you dont need to manually calculate them and you can play in RT.
Turn based is not slowed down real-time just so we can calculate rolls. Hell some people play PnP with a pre-rolled sheet of results, at least some game masters do to accelerate things. Turn based is not an artifact of low tech, there are PnP RPGs that are phase-based, were every character acts simultaneously. And you know what, the rules and systems are different to accomodate that.
There are many things that cannot be executed in RT, and therefore they are divided in closed time units. The thing is that if the time units are small enough, then it is percived as real time. TB games have been around since ancient times, because else the people would kill eachother of minor disputes about how fast somethings happend. But that has been solved on many accouts, like in RT strategy computer games, where nobody can dispute what really happend. But even there the connection and ping values are important good keybord, mouse, makros and etc. TB is naturally not low tech, but just an other paradigm for action execution.

D&D's systems were made for turn based. Initiative, who acts first, changes a lot. Win it, and you can position yourself advantageously or down the enemies before they know you're here and without them being able to react. If you're a thief/rogue/stealthing/have a feat/class feature, you might get an extra turn or half-turn to do so, catching the enemy flat-footed, and dealing therefore much more damage or gaining some other advantage depending on build. A good RT system instead would have animation times for actions, as that is what's appropriate for it.
Yes.

But RTwP D&D uses some defined round duration, a one size fits all "cooldown" for all actions, trying to badly emulate the PnP (which is why some morons call Infinity engine games "turn" based). You don't see your character doing his attacks, he looks like he's doing one but he might be doing four, because they had to fit it all in the "round". Characters get locked into their round actions. Things happening out of your turn (interrupts, reactions) are also weirdly implemented, notably attacks of opportunity.
That is not a problem of RTwP, but of the "how" design.

Not only that, but many character features were made to take advantage of when you act, which cannot be translated to RTwP. 2nd edition is far in my mind, but 3rd had implemented those features into feats that gave you more initiative, allowed you to take an extra action in certain circumstances, interrupts, reactions, all of which had to be gutted for RTwP. How would you implement in RTwP for example a feature that gave you a move action on certain triggers, such as if someone closed on you, or failed an attack? The rules just don't adapt.
Yes initiative has been badly translated, from TB to RTwP. But i can name you the solution: different timing for parts of animation. Example: A halbard with an intiative of 10 requires a slower attack animation than a broadswod with an intiative of 5. This problem is a result of the limitations that were in place nearly up to the 2010s. Currently i can very easy solve this problem in Unreal Engine 4.

Also, RTwP is a clusterfuck, and that is because it implements a system made for giving complex instructions about how your one character is going to act, while giving you a whole party of characters.
Yes and No. There is the problem to command a party in RT. In RTwP you can naturally have a LILO list of actions for each member and store the actions there. So in other words more a problem of 'how' design, then of the principle.

The rules were designed for you having a certain time to decide what to do, and that is impossible in real-time, all options being in multiples menus, so they had to add the pause abomination as a main combat mechanic for you to be able to give instructions, and add an AI that can just play the game on its own because you can't just pause every milisecond to give a command to everyone of them dudes.
No. You know there is something we call scripts.

Plus, because RTwP is a clusterfuck, and you can't have tactical positioning, you get shit like no friendly fire for attacks/AoEs. This is why they went with it for Tyranny for example. RTwP brings by its own nature a dumbing down of turn based mechanics, and therefore a dumbing down of available tactics, instead of creating ones adapted to RT.
NO. You can have tactical postioning. And RTwP brings other things to the table than TB, not necessary the same, but it can emulate quite good TB tactics if it is done right. Bad examples do prove that you can fuck things up, but not that there is a possibility to make them right.

All that, and I haven't covered it at all yet.
Then i will surely address them.
 
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Lurker King

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And RTwP brings other things to the table than TB, not necessary the same, but it can emulate quite good TB tactics if it is done right

Sure, it is like comunism. It must have failed one hundred times because they didn't implemented it right. I have a simpler explanation: it can't emulate TB tactics because it sucks.

Not even half way there before you can legit quit.

If the game was any good, I should have tried three times to stop playing it in order to eat, sleep and take a shower, not the other way around.
 
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Xzylvador

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Wake me when patch 16 to the ultimate director's superior cut ultra enchanced ediotion comes out.
It'll probably still be shit then, but at least I could tell the fanboys telling me "it's great when patched!" to fuck off.
 

Darkzone

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And RTwP brings other things to the table than TB, not necessary the same, but it can emulate quite good TB tactics if it is done right
Sure, it is like comunism. It must have failed one hundred times because they didn't implemented it right. I have a simpler explanation: it can't emulate TB tactics because it sucks.
Communism fails again and again, bacause it is agains the complex human nature: Humans are greed retarded bastards, and without an incentive they are fucking lazy. And that will never change.
If you want to address specific failure of RTwP emulate TB, then i can try to solve them or state where the problem lies. Else this is a weak statement.
 
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Communism fails again and again, because it is against the complex nature of markets and prevents individuals from creating wealth.

Fixed.

RTwP fails again and again because it is against the complex nature of party-based games and prevent players from having decent challenge due to the limited AI. The comparison it's like poetry.
 
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Inxile gives the impression of a chinese room approach to game development. An Old School cRPG is slipped under the door, people take notes on what they think are the design elements - "lots of text... more than three dialogue options" - and get cracking without caring the slightest for the reasons behind these elements let alone whether they even think they're sensible.
 

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Yes initiative has been badly translated, from TB to RTwP. But i can name you the solution: different timing for parts of animation. Example: A halbard with an intiative of 10 requires a slower attack animation than a broadswod with an intiative of 5. This problem is a result of the limitations that were in place nearly up to the 2010s. Currently i can very easy solve this problem in Unreal Engine 4.
I've said that myself. But you forgot the context of this discussion. It was about the idea that the translation of D&D in real-time was "solid D&D". Of course, if you go RT, you go for RT animations, to use RT's strengths. But the Infinity engine games didn't, they purposefully tried to emulate the PnP 6 second combat round by making all actions take a single fixed amount of time without regards for animation. It was not the result of engine limitations.


RTwP is a clusterfuck
Yes and No. There is the problem to command a party in RT. In RTwP you can naturally have a stack of actions for each member and store the actions there. So in other words more a problem of 'how' design, then of the principle.
You know there is something we call scripts.
So your solution, in addition to pause as a game mechanic and AI, is action queueing and scripts?
But that is exactly my point. The combat with its complexity is so unmanageable that you need all four to make it playable. Queueing to compensate for pause being inefficient and annoying since you'd have to pause every milisecond to command properly; Scripts to compensate for shitty AI. Remember pause and AI were already a patch for RT's problems with such a complex combat design with many activable abilities over multiple characters; so what you envision is a patch to the patch, and it has to be done just right (in your words it's a "problem of 'how' design), or it'll fail. All this is a consequence of trying to force a TB-designed system in RT. If you want simultaneous resolution, it would be better as phase based, which is more appropriate for such fights with many commands to give from an ever bigger pool of options. Much better than automatisation.


Plus, because RTwP is a clusterfuck, and you can't have tactical positioning, you get shit like no friendly fire for attacks/AoEs. This is why they went with it for Tyranny for example. RTwP brings by its own nature a dumbing down of turn based mechanics, and therefore a dumbing down of available tactics, instead of creating ones adapted to RT.
NO. You can have tactical postioning.
I will grant that. But at a cost of making the gameplay about micromanaging (fast clicking or fast pausing). See Starcraft; but Starcraft does not have nearly as much activable abilities / tactical options to manage, which is why it works. It's about squeezing the maximum tactics with what little options/abilities you have.
 
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FeelTheRads

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Is anyone even waiting for patches/updates for this? If it sells as shitty as some say then I don't think there's going to be any DC or whatever other great improvement.

I wish that worked with PoEtards :(

It's going to be fixed in PoE 3, just wait.
 

Darkzone

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Let me make it clearer. Turn based systems are not just a cosmetic layer on rolls and rules. They are the core combat mechanic on which character features and actions are designed. They are the rules upon which the other rules are built to interact with. In turn based systems, you have an alloted amount of actions you can take before others have to act. In D&D, you usually have a main action, a move action, and a minor action and/or a reaction (depending on editions). You have to plan ahead, because when your turn is over, then everybody acts before you act again. That means if you left yourself in an exposed position, you most likely will get fucked by all your adversaries. So positioning is extremely important, as is the ability to disable others, use cover/conceal yourself, and plan ahead with the rest of your party (who does what and when). You've got all those combat actions/mechanics built around that, such as delaying, readying actions/overwatch, replacing a main action with a move, reactions, etc.
And how does this contradict the principle of RTwP? In my humble opinion as someone who has developed and worked upon simulations (continuous and event driven) this can be made also in RTwP.

Real time doesn't work like that, because if you realize you're getting fucked, you can just pull out right away after the animation of your action finishes (and even then the game might have implemented cancelling actions). Readying and delaying make no sense there.
[/QUOTE] That can be easy solved by an delay or by sticking the PC to the enemy.

If you realize you need healing, you don't have to wait until it's your healer's turn, tense because your fighter might die any moment, you just heal right away. Cursed/poisoned/etc.? Remove it now before you suffer its effects.
You can have a system that incorporates this, with the result: If the healer is executing his action or he is in an debuff / delay, then you cannot simply interrupt him to change action.

The economy of actions is completely different. Because of that, the balance has to be different. And class features, weapons, and choosable talents have to be different too, because their way of interacting with the moment to moment gameplay in combat is different. That is why, btw, Arcanum's combat systems were inevitably going to fail, trying to do both.
Yes the the economy of actions is different, but also is economy of actions dependend on the situation. If you hava a only minor damaged party then a heal is less valuable than in a sitution where the party has major damage. If you have face one enemy then a week large area attack is also less valubale then a strong single enemy attack.
Arcanum TB is not good n Arcanum RTwP is not good.

Now real time has strengths that can't be had by TB. It's perfect for systems that require you to react moment to moment to what your opponents are doing. Manually blocking and dodging are things that are possible, but make no sense in a TB system. Those are strengths that are used by the Gothics and Dark Souls, for example.
See how the combat system influences design?
Have you heard of parry in NWN2?
 

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If the game was any good, I should have tried three times to stop playing it in order to eat, sleep and take a shower, not the other way around.
So, you had to force yourself to stop sleeping, eating and taking a shower to start the game again.
I am trying to imagine what your daily routine looks like :philosoraptor:
 

Darkzone

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Communism fails again and again, because it is against the complex nature of markets and prevents individuals from creating wealth.
Fixed.
Yes, you can fix it so, if you want it to, is a result of my statement about laziness, and does not contradict my previous stement. I just wanted to make it more accurate and get to the point that communisim has no chance.
Btw.: Greed is not necessary something evil, it can be quite an incentive for development of wealth (example: inovations, investation and etc), it is bad only if you do something bad to other from the greed that you have.

RTwP fails again and again because it is against the complex nature of party-based games and prevent players from having decent challenge due to the limited AI. The comparison it's like poetry.
"due to the limited AI." you have found for yourself an explanation for the failure of RTwP. I would keep it more general and say in other words: Blame the developers.
 

Ismaul

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"due to the limited AI." you have found for yourself an explanation for the failure of RTwP. I would keep it more general and say in other words: Blame the developers.
Limited AI for party members is part of RTwP design. If the AI was too good, then the game would play itself, and combat would be a screensaver.

So you need shitty AI as a patch for the micromanaging, and you need scripts as a patch for shitty AI. By design. But then if the scripting is too powerful, you're back with the problem of having a too good AI.
 

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Let me make it clearer. Turn based systems are not just a cosmetic layer on rolls and rules. They are the core combat mechanic on which character features and actions are designed. They are the rules upon which the other rules are built to interact with. In turn based systems, you have an alloted amount of actions you can take before others have to act. In D&D, you usually have a main action, a move action, and a minor action and/or a reaction (depending on editions). You have to plan ahead, because when your turn is over, then everybody acts before you act again. That means if you left yourself in an exposed position, you most likely will get fucked by all your adversaries. So positioning is extremely important, as is the ability to disable others, use cover/conceal yourself, and plan ahead with the rest of your party (who does what and when). You've got all those combat actions/mechanics built around that, such as delaying, readying actions/overwatch, replacing a main action with a move, reactions, etc.
And how does this contradict the principle of RTwP? In my humble opinion as someone who has developed and worked upon simulations (continuous and event driven) this can be made also in RTwP.
You can have a system that incorporates this, with the result: If the healer is executing his action or he is in an debuff / delay, then you cannot simply interrupt him to change action.
Let me give you an example. You have a party of 4, facing 10 enemies. In TB, you act with one character, and then you have to wait for the 13 others to act before you can act with him again. All 10 enemies will act beforehand. So you need to plan for that, for imprevisiblity, for your character (let's call him Bob) possibly being ganged up on. You need to do that during Bob's turn, afterwards he's just gonna have to suffer through it. Maybe your healer's turn comes after 6 enemies have attacked Bob, and then you have a choice: do I heal Bob or can he take more punishment, do I attack instead or move the healer in a defensive position so he does not get ganged up too? Can't do it all. This tension and planning isn't the same for RTwP, because, since all actions are simultaneous, the most you have to wait for to gain back control of all characters is the end of their animation / the end of one turn, no matter how many adversaries. The difference is huge, and therefore the mechanics and abilities of characters must be adapted to it if they're well designed. This is why there's things such as delaying, readying actions, reactions, etc. in TB.

Now real time has strengths that can't be had by TB. It's perfect for systems that require you to react moment to moment to what your opponents are doing. Manually blocking and dodging are things that are possible, but make no sense in a TB system.
Have you heard of parry in NWN2?
Have you heard of reading? I said manually blocking and parrying are possible strengths of RT systems, strengths that TB cannot have.
 

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