Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[Luckmann]

No, progress is very slow, unfortunately, I'm pretty meticulous and I keep reloading because of various reasons (mostly tides, honestly, because it's like rolling a roulette wheel - they seem to have particular difficulties gauging Indigo vs. Gold, it's extremely common that "Do it for the future" or "Do it for the community" has resulted in Gold rather than Indigo. It's fucking weird that they failed so hard with the Tides, considering that the tides are pretty well-defined).

They've been pretty random so far, actually. The only consistent one seems to be the blue tide. I'm also not role-playing a particularly altruistic person, but I'm half blue, half gold. Sometimes just asking "what's wrong?" results in a gold tide. I've had some moderate red or indigo tides out of nowhere, too.

Me too. At first I deliberately tried to boost Blue, but I've consistently tried to avoid Gold without being an asshole, and yet I've only ever really been Gold, Blue, or Gold/Blue for the majority of the game so far. It seems like every other time you ask a question - any question - you get Blue, and if you so much as say "Oh, though luck, buddy." you get Gold.

It's not just that it's inconsistent, either, but it's also that you never know the "tone" of what you're saying. Half the time when you tell someone to go fuck themselves (or something to that effect), you get Red, even if you're not brash or violent about it. It's odd as hell. I think that someone just didn't grasp the tides, and started doling out points for "Good" (Gold) and "Chaotic" or "Evil" (Red), which is quite the opposite of the intent of the system as I understand it. Indigo is by far the most random one, though, followed by Silver.

Also, am I the only one that's a bit weirded out by the fact that the companions aren't attuned to the tides at all? I was under the impression that everyone is, it's just that the player is moreso. At the very least, Matkina should have a Tides score, even if it would just be Silver or neutral. Erretis is so pronounced Red/Gold it's not even funny.

Spoiler

I lied, it's hilarious.

Now that I mentioned slavery, how does THAT make sense in this setting? I can accuse Rhin's slaver of being evil, yet slavery is legal?

Yeah, that pissed me off to no end. There's no way to treat it as natural and perfectly OK, even though it appears to be a widely accepted practice. And what's worse, even the others - including the fucking slavers themselves - recognize it as a reprehensible practice.

Which in a pre-civilization/post-apocalyptic setting is borderline absurd. Slavery is legal and Sagus Cliffs is literally run by ex-slave families that rebelled; the idea of slavery as indentured servitude or "slavery is OK, but slaves need to be treated right" would make a lot more sense.

It's clearly socially acceptable, and we're literally a newborn consciousness - why would we consider slavery reprehensible by default? It's fucking stupid.

 

[Roguey]

Sounds like this game could use some Sawyer-esque indicators of which option boosts which tide.

 

[ArchAngel]

Sounds like this game could use some Sawyer-esque indicators of which option boosts which tide.

I turned off that shit in PoE so I really don't care. I am just choosing whatever I want, don't care what tide I get.

 

[MRY]

And similarly stupid epitaphs. Fuck off with your "Look ma, no hands", plz.

No respect for gaming history.

 

[Klarion]

Did anyone like the ending here? I have low standards but cringed anyway.

If it wasn't a PS:T sequel after 18 years but a new franchise I'd probably like the game.

It's NOT a PST sequel...

 

[Luckmann]

Can you get Silver without being Stupid Evil?

To get full Silver and nothing else? Doubtful. But there are plenty of instances where you do get Silver without being Stupid Evil. Sometimes in awkward places, such as saying "Leadership is a lonely path". Boom, Silver. Also, any time you mention wanting to be remembered or respected, or even when you tell people that they should act as examples to the community (which should be Indigo, but nooo, look, Silver!).

Like I said, roulette wheel. But yeah, no, you don't just get silver from Stupid Evil. Most Red/Silver stuff is Chaotic/Evil, though - expressing a will to power, randomly killing people, etc. Because clearly, if you tell someone you're going to buttfuck them with a sword, you're being passionate about it, I guess, and if you tell someone to hang back, you're after their respect and adoration. Fuck, I dunno, tides sounded like a good idea, but it's honestly harder to read than regular fucking alignments - at least there you knew that it all conformed to modernist western values about how freedom is good and slavery evil and shit like that.

All-in-all, I think the game was just missing a firm hand in that department (and in many others). It's simply inconsistent, so you don't know what to expect, and shoddy writing with no indications on inflection or action makes it even harder to gauge the tone of what you're saying. I've said it before and I'm saying it again; I loved PoE Dispositions for the crutch it game when it came to presenting dialogue options.

Sounds like this game could use some Sawyer-esque indicators of which option boosts which tide.

No, that would be awful. Dispositions and Tides are fundamentally different in what they represent. That said, the game could really use a Disposition system and those should be marked with indicators, which would absolutely help with doling out tides modifiers.

Something I loved with Tyranny was the text-in-text system, where you could essentially give "Codex"-like information inside of an ongoing dialogue, or in dialogue options. If that was used to tag conversation options as "Aggressive" or any other disposition (there doesn't even need to be a disposition system, just tag the dialogue options with appropriate adjectives) that would actually be ideal.

 

[Lacrymas]

You messed up the quote there :p The blue tide, while consistent in its qualities, is inconsistent in its implementation. You get blue for just asking questions, but since the *only* thing you do is ask questions in this fucking game, it's random which question counts! I don't think it matters to the game itself though, it looks like it's a vestigial appendage left over after the obvious train wreck that occurred somewhere in development. I theorize that they may have had some combat usage, because of Rhin's slaver teaching you how to use/control them. Maybe even force people to do your bidding with them in a social context. Forcing the apparition to appear in the Labyrinth feels like that and may have had a tide requirement for you to do it.

 

[Luckmann]

Sounds like this game could use some Sawyer-esque indicators of which option boosts which tide.

I turned off that shit in PoE so I really don't care. I am just choosing whatever I want, don't care what tide I get.

I initially turned those off in PoE too, but it became so hard to read how the characters express themselves that I had to turn it back on. It essentially became much like the modern Bioware "choose 1, 2 or 3" system, where the character started to express itself in completely unintended ways.

There's just such an enormous difference between [Deceptive] "Give it to me", [Aggressive] "Give it to me", and [Benevolent] "Give it to me".

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I keep reloading because of various reasons.

 

[Moth]

I for one, truly appreciate how the game's ending severely punishes the "screw the rules and options, I'll make my own destiny!" option that is often so hamfisted into RPGs. May give my full thoughts once I manage to digest them later, though I don't expect anyone to care about them either.

 

[Parabalus]

Parabalus I thought the concept of the Necropolis was a clever solution to the bazillion backer tombs that were required, but I have no idea how the concept translated into practice.

You get named tombs with totally out of character names. Like teenager nicknames.

A NPC merchant, Tantalum, suggests that that sifting through the entire tomb is worth it, like an unmarked quest. That on it's own, with it's rather cathartic resolution (one of the game's highlights for me) + the NPCs you meet, should have been enough, but burying "real" quests into it, and gating your writing behind it, which I learned later, is vomit worthy.

...

I managed to stick to "Idealist" for most of the game, but man is the Gold tide overrepresented, almost impossible to avoid unless you murder everyone you meet.

 

[Luckmann]

[...] Maybe even force people to do your bidding with them in a social context. Forcing the apparition to appear in the Labyrinth feels like that and may have had a tide requirement for you to do it.

Yes, you can do this, from time to time. It's not just in the Labyrinth.

Spoiler

It can be used for getting the alien-digger-people's eggs, purge an alien in the psychic bar from his doubts, and to get another alien to tell him why he's asking questions in the Circus Minor, for example.

I suspect the idea in this case was to have you affect them differently depending on your Tides, but there appears to be no difference; you just get major boosts in different tides, depending on who you use it on. I suspect that the idea (both for combat and for dialogues) was that if you were attuned to Gold, the outcome would be different from if you, say, were attuned to Red. It's also interesting to note that the game mentions that you may affect different characters differently or get extra options depending on your tides, but so far, I've noticed nothing of the sort. This description is consistent with how the Tides are described as being intended to be used in the Explorer's Guide supplement for the PnP, but there appears to be no actual implementation of it in Tides of Numenera.

Since we're on this topic anyway, I feel that I must also mention that how Tides are awarded in Tides of Numenera is completely different from how it's described in the PnP supplement. Tides of Numenera hands modifiers out for literally just asking questions, but that's pretty much opposite of intended implementation. This suggests that something changed drastically (for the worse) between the time of which the book was published and the game released, keeping in mind that these things were intended to complement eachother (to the point where Speaks with a Silver Tongue and Breathes Shadow are Foci that were created for the supplement based on the game or vice versa, for example).

I keep reloading because of various reasons.

Yeah, it turns out that a poorly written game has issues with how things play out based on the relative difference of meaning that can be inferred in single sentences. Absolutely haram.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I keep reloading because of various reasons.

Yeah, it turns out that a poorly written game has issues with how things play out based on the relative difference of meaning that can be inferred in single sentences. Absolutely haram.

Oh I'm sure it's poorly written game's fault that your spine is made of jello and you have to reload after picking wrong dialogue options.

 

[existential_vacuum]

16 or so hours in and MY GOD WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

THAT FUCKING UI

THAT FUCKING UI. It's 2017, for fucks sake, you can't resize it properly GOD DAMMIT. These icons are bad, this BRILLIANT GLOW is unnecessary. This empty space for text. Everything looks like a game from an one-guy indie game studio, who isn't experienced.

Got to the biiiiig twist and.. it went from "personal story" to, sorta, "chosen one".
But I got to ask: why the fuck should I care about the twist? There basicly was NO plot whatsoever for 10 hours, just little secluded events/quests and walls of text about NOTHING.
CYOAs aren't even CYOAs, you can just click through aimlessly through walls and walls of text and won't miss a freakin' thing.

These isolated quests, that ignore logic.
Why can't I tell Jernaugh to go to the dump and give Clawed Gauntlets to stichus?
Why can't I repair the clock AND rest till the night time? Because they ran out of budget to make proper day/night cycle?
Why Tol Maguur just goes "um, okay, keep Rhin" in a fucking instant?
Why endless gate cultists can't look for memoralists themselves behind FUCKING PLANKS BEFORE THEM?

I need a fuckin' drink.

EDIT: fixed image hosting fuckery

 

[ga♥]

I was Silver Tide dominat for half Saguf Cliffs.

Checkmate crypto liberals!

 

[Luckmann]

Also, maybe it's because I did the whole Denda O'Hur thing very late, but:

Valley of Dead Heroes / Children of the Endless Gate

When you originally hear about the Children of the Endless Gate, it's described as a small splinter cult of the Dendra O'Hur that was driven out of Sagus Cliffs decades ago. The Dendra O'Hur itself appears to be fairly small, too. Then you reach the Valley of Dead Heroes, and they turn out to be major regional antagonists that everyone there has heard about - you practically land in their stronghold, and are immediately approached by three of them. Then you meet another two. Then another three. And then more. Does that strike anyone else as... weird? It just feels extremely off, with practically no foreshadowing. It seems very out of place and sudden, yet isn't acknowledged as such anywhere, not even a "Turns out these bastards are far bigger than expected, they must've been growing out here for decades" or anything. Just.. business as usual.

It's just weird, I think.

16 or so hours in and MY GOD WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

THAT FUCKING UI

THAT FUCKING UI. It's 2017, for fucks sake, you can't resize it properly GOD DAMMIT. These icons are bad, this BRILLIANT GLOW is unnecessary. This empty space for text. Everything looks like a game from an one-guy indie game studio, who isn't experienced.

Got to the biiiiig twist and.. it went from "personal story" to, sorta, "chosen one".
But I got to ask: why the fuck should I care about the twist? There basicly was NO plot whatsoever for 10 hours, just little secluded events/quests and walls of text about NOTHING.
CYOAs aren't even CYOAs, you can just click through aimlessly through walls and walls of text and won't miss a freakin' thing.

These isolated quests, that ignore logic.
Why can't I tell Jernaugh to go to the dump and give Clawed Gauntlets to stichus?
Why can't I repair the clock AND rest till the night time? Because they ran out of budget to make proper day/night cycle?
Why Tol Maguur just goes "um, okay, keep Rhin" in a fucking instant?
Why endless gate cultists can't look for memoralists themselves behind FUCKING PLANKS BEFORE THEM?

I need a fuckin' drink.

I for one welcome our new console overlords. It is quite a feat to make a worse UI than the in-combat UI of Pillars of Eternity and Wasteland 2: Definitive Consoles.

Are you saying there's something wrong with this clear, crips and easily-overviewed masterpiece?

Plot Twist

Oh I'm sure it's poorly written game's fault that your spine is made of jello and you have to reload after picking wrong dialogue options.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were actually making a "Haha, reloading is for plebs"-joke about the collective hardcore-ness of the Codex as true connoisseurs of the ironman lifestyle, but it turns out that you're just retarded. Pity.

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, those overdesigned swirly things over characters when you press tab. Yeah. The fuck are those?

I think I may have come across a bug: When I was doing The Sorrow's Prey (I think that's what it was called?) I forced the apparition to appear, because I really didn't want to scour the map trying to find her puzzle-box or whatever, and she exploded into a bloody mess. After I visited the Totally-Not-Smoldering-Corpse, however, and went into the ghostly woman's fathom, the previous woman who exploded appeared totally intact and even gave me a buff (+1 to all stats).

 

[Shadenuat]

You consistently gain Silver for saying that's you're the Chosen One, basically.
You will end up being at least half Blue regardless of your choices, since just asking questions makes you that, and since 95% of all dialogue is asking questions, well, you get the idea.

 

[YES!]

I for one, truly appreciate how the game's ending severely punishes the "screw the rules and options, I'll make my own destiny!" option that is often so hamfisted into RPGs. May give my full thoughts once I manage to digest them later, though I don't expect anyone to care about them either.

I did two endings and licked them both. I like how everything is summed up after. I really like how the game has real roleplaying options where doing the good thing makes your party worse. I can think of 3 solid instances of this in my single play through.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Oh, those overdesigned swirly things over characters when you press tab. Yeah. The fuck are those?

I think I may have come across a bug: When I was doing The Sorrow's Prey (I think that's what it was called?) I forced the apparition to appear, because I really didn't want to scour the map trying to find her puzzle-box or whatever, and she exploded into a bloody mess. After I visited the Totally-Not-Smoldering-Corpse, however, and went into the ghostly woman's fathom, the previous woman who exploded appeared totally intact and even gave me a buff (+1 to all stats).

Uh... wait.. what? I'm already confused.. probably did things differently. By ghostly woman's fathom you mean the one for the Ashen Imitation quest? She didn't appear back for me, though I think I didn't check after finishing that quest. I managed to fuck that fathom, though. If you die from the Tabath for example but kill some of them when you get back you fight the remaining ones but the dead ones rise up and continue their stupid punching nothing animation.

Spoiler

Also, I only found the singing girl was part of it too after turning off the machine and when I went back into the fathom she told me to tell her father to stop bothering but the father was not there anymore.

 

[Anthedon]

I for one, truly appreciate how the game's ending severely punishes the "screw the rules and options, I'll make my own destiny!" option that is often so hamfisted into RPGs. May give my full thoughts once I manage to digest them later, though I don't expect anyone to care about them either.

Which option do you mean?

 

[MRY]

existential_vacuum Sigh. That UI is frustrating, especially because I remember the artists explaining that a big part of what took them a long time as designing UIs for different resolutions. Hopefully a bugfix will resolve.

 

[Moth]

Which option do you mean?

Spoiler

Crippling the Sorrow with the power of the tides.

 

[Anthedon]

Speaking of the UI. Some elements do not scale properly when you play at 1920x1200. Videos and meres simply leave a part of the game world visible at the top and bottom of the screen (instead of just putting black bars there).

 

[prodigydancer]

I need a fuckin' drink.