As always, RPGWatch with the Turn-Based RPG reviews which Codex ignores: "Stranger of Sword City"

[Celerity]

Like we said, the purpose of the dungeon layouts is getting you lost. If you can't remember that you should go through the door directly across from you, well...

 

[Kea]

Wizardry 1 itself has Door Rooms. Hell, it has corridors with doors between every tile. This is a weird thing to get hung up on.

 

[an Administrator]

You're hung up about doors? Okay. The maps are the main attraction here, they are crazy and maze-like, with each dungeon having its own unique quirks. If viewing doors is a problem for you, then I wouldn't recommend playing dungeon crawlers to begin with, since the point of them isn't exactly the graphics (see: Wizardry line "graphics").

I just found it bizarre. Like, what is it supposed to represent? If Elminage is just some 4 dimensional art piece crafted by aliens then it is fine and very post modern, but if it's supposed to be a real dungeon, who would construct a room a few feet across that is surrounded by 4 doors? Repeatedly? In a natural cave?

It's not really a question of difficulty and hardcore grognarding, Elminage just never clicked with me. I mean, I've finished Demise. Fucking retarded amounts of grinding and deaths and ridiculous mechanics never bothered me, but Elminage Gothic just wasn't a fit for me. Ah well, everyone has their own peculiar tastes when it comes to blobbers.

Just imagine dungeons are created by sadistic wizards to make adventurers confused. This will make things easier for you.

 

[anomie]

bro its like in scooby doo when theyd get into chase scenes and be in a hallway with 8 doors and theyre running in and out teleporting between rooms. nobody questions it because it was made to exist within the context of the show, its the same with dungeon layouts in wizardry games

 

[BlackGoat]

Considering you roll in a party of six and can fight huge crowds of monsters on a single tile, I think you're supposed to assume the tile is quite a bit larger than a few feet across. Just imagine the single tile surrounded by doors is actually a fairly big room and it doesn't seem as silly.

But yeah, abstract and all that.

 

[aweigh]

man, zeriel sure does bitch about the dumbest fucking things.

If i understand things correctly he's complaining that dungeons are bad because they're too maze-like and confuse him with their inability to adhere to real-world architecture design?

it's almost as if he's complaining that a maze is bad because it's too confusing. :D

EDIT: The wizardry 4 maps (or, better yet, the Dark heart of Uukrul), would prolly make poor zeriel's eyes bug out in outrage over their spatial considerations!

"WHO PLACED ALL THESE MINES HERE? WHY WOULD THEY BUILD A FLOOR WITHOUT WALLS WHERE YOU CAN FALL OFF????"

"I JUST STEPPED ON A TILE AND IT RANDOMLY MADE THE DOORS DISAPPEARS! THIS MAKES NO ARCHITECTURAL SENSE WHATSOEVER I AM DONE WITH THIS GAME".

"I CAN MOVE IN MORE THAN 4 DIRECTIONS IN REAL LIFE. THIS GAME IS SHITT!"

 

[RuySan]

Don't be silly. I play this kind of games as long as i remember, and i agree with Zerial when it comes to Elminage gothic subpar level design. The only other games in this subgenre that i remember being so annoyed with the same issue were Mordor and Demise.

 

[aweigh]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. If you've only played Elminage: Original then I concur that this was not Starfish's best work in terms of maze design (they wanted to make the game easier to navigate after making three Wizardry Empire games with hard-core mazes).

However, in the of Elminage: Gothic I disagree, and believe it features excellent dungeon design that gets progressively better with the Royal Tomb and the Inner Sanctum being highlights, along with the 20 floor Ibag's Tower.

Obviously play what you want, but if you're referring specifically to E: Gothic (and not E: Original, which I agree features sub-par mazes), I only recommend giving it a second chance some rainy day when you've nothing else to play until you make to at least the Royal Tomb.

All that said, E: Gothic mazes were made specifically to recreate the type of mazes found in Wizardry 1-3, so it may simply be you don't find that specific type of maze design to your liking, and that's fine.

First floor of the first dungeon in E: Gothic:

First floor of the Underground Church:

Final floor of the Underground Church:

Final floor of the Inner Sanctum:

First floor of the Royal Tomb:

First floor of Ibag's Tower:

12th floor of Ibag's Tower:

As you can see, I don't post these imagines to say, "Wow, look how AMAZING THESE ARE!", I post them to showcase the intent behind Starfish's maze design for E: Gothic. They wanted to (and achieved) recreate the type of mazes found in Wizardry 1, 2, 3, and to a certain extent also in 4.

Wizardry 5, 6, 7 and 8 began straying from the 20x20 "densely packed square maze" formula, which many prefer, and also many others dislike.

Demise and Moror, btw, do not feature dungeon design in any way whatsoever similar to Wizardry titles, with the only similarity being that all three game(s) (Demise, Mordor and early Wizardry) wanted to feature maze-y mazes that maze you up.

For what it's worth, I also dislike Demise's dungeons, and coupled with other gameplay facets I also didn't care for I never was able to get into Demise even though it was highly recommended to me when I began playing 'crawlers.

Have not played Mordor.

 

[RuySan]

I suppose those are good designs for purely "gamey" purposes. I prefer if the design can merge that aspect with a good sense of place. I also take issue with the multiple 1*1 rooms with four doors.

I installed E:G again because I'm so starved of quality dungeon crawlers that I will try it again from the beginning.

 

[Dorarnae]

I guess it's because people are too used to look at their map/mini map. if those 4 doors room had spinning tile too, then I would maybe understand but the game doesn't have that, so it's not too bad to know where you are/where you're going.

 

[aweigh]

Yes, E: Gothic (and for that matter, ALL Wizardry-inspired turn-based 'crawlers), do not aim for "logical" mazes.

The mazes are as "game-y" as can be, and their very purpose is to maze you up. As long as you understand that they are not meant to represent "real places that follow spatial reasoning" then you will enjoy them.

Think of each 20x20 dungeon floor not as a "place", but as a giant puzzle room you need to figure out.

EDIT: That said there are dungeons in E: Gothic (and in Wizardry) which do feature a type of spatial logistics. The E: Gothic dungeon, "Hastrana", is a five floors deep and you being on the top floor and must figure out a way to fall down onto the lower floors "correctly".

There are dozens of places to fall down (or go back up) in each of the five floors, but there is only one correct sequence of falling down, and going up to a different place on the floor above, then falling again, etc, which will lead you to the bottom of the dungeon.

It makes absolutely zero architectural sense but damn if it isn't a fantastic dungeon to "solve".

Zeriel
RuySan

 

[Dorarnae]

some map from dungeon travelers 2. and thats why I love this game (man I can't wait for 2-2)

 

[aweigh]

man i can't wait to get a VITA when it's super low price. DT2 is the primary reason for this.

 

[Dorarnae]

man i can't wait to get a VITA when it's super low price. DT2 is the primary reason for this.

get a playstation tv? pretty much all crawler are compatible with it.

 

[RuySan]

I had no idea what was dungeon travelers 2, so after a quick search I saw that the game features explicit loli fellatio. So, it's just the right sort of game for a portable console.

Way to go Japan!

 

[RuySan]

This game is being discounted by 50% on steam, and I'm being tempted. How does it compare to other Japanese blobbers like etrian odyssey and dark spire?

 

[Jasede]

Easier with simpler labyrinths but much higher production values. Character system is neat and allows for good cross-class variety and many approaches. Random encounters are very easy. However, bosses can be challenging.

 

[Tarrant]

I'm about to pull the trigger on a VITA + DT2, just for the dungeon layouts alone -- sooo tired of the super predictable 20x20 thing, or the Etrian Odysseyish walls-take-up-an-actual-grid-square nonsense.

Buuuuut... after watching a let's play on YT, I'm a little concerned about what appears to be sluggish battle speed and even sluggish text. Can anybody speak to that, or to whether there are battle speed / text speed settings? Slow-ass battle speeds are sort of a show stopper for me. Wizardry Gaiden IV's button mashing through groups of weak enemies in 3 seconds is more my style... in fact, all dungeon crawlers should use the Wiz 5 / Wiz Gaiden IV engine. >:0 But I digress...

 

[Emmanuel2]

Buuuuut... after watching a let's play on YT, I'm a little concerned about what appears to be sluggish battle speed and even sluggish text. Can anybody speak to that, or to whether there are battle speed / text speed settings? Slow-ass battle speeds are sort of a show stopper for me. Wizardry Gaiden IV's button mashing through groups of weak enemies in 3 seconds is more my style... in fact, all dungeon crawlers should use the Wiz 5 / Wiz Gaiden IV engine. >:0 But I digress...

I HATE slow battle speed, which is why I won't be getting 90% of the Vita JRPGs. If the game dicks around with animations and shit in a turn-based game, I won't be getting it.

DT2 (the only reason why I bought a vita) luckily doesn't have this problem once you have your characters are all set up. A well-built papillion alone can make battles go so fast like around 3-4 seconds including results screen pre-postgame - think SoSC endgame auto-battle fast. There are text-speed settings and you can hold a button to make battle logs go even faster.

 

[duanth123]

I'm about to pull the trigger on a VITA + DT2, just for the dungeon layouts alone -- sooo tired of the super predictable 20x20 thing, or the Etrian Odysseyish walls-take-up-an-actual-grid-square nonsense.

Buuuuut... after watching a let's play on YT, I'm a little concerned about what appears to be sluggish battle speed and even sluggish text. Can anybody speak to that, or to whether there are battle speed / text speed settings? Slow-ass battle speeds are sort of a show stopper for me. Wizardry Gaiden IV's button mashing through groups of weak enemies in 3 seconds is more my style... in fact, all dungeon crawlers should use the Wiz 5 / Wiz Gaiden IV engine. >:0 But I digress...

There are settings options to make it faster...

Meaning, you can choose to skip all battle animations and sound effects, such that the average round takes less than 5 seconds. Average battles less than 30 seconds.

I have your exact same dislikes re: sluggish battle speed and experienced no problems in my 100+ hr. playthrough.

 

[Celerity]

You guys do know the Playstation TV works with Vita games and costs about 4 times less right? It's not portable but I doubt you guys are taking it out of the house anyways and 45 dollars + vita game cost is a lot more reasonable given there aren't many good games (and ya know, SoSC is PC anyways).

 

[Nostaljaded]

Can anybody speak to that, or to whether there are battle speed / text speed settings [in DT2]?

DT2 does not have a battle log, fixed in DT2-2.

Its fastest/no combat animation setting is still a tad slow (probably due to no battle log), hopefully DT2-2 has a new 'instant' option.
Ask Dorarnae's DT2-2 impressions after he starts posting in his youtube channel.

---------------------------------
Looking out for games where one can do fast combat while still fighting an army like in MM2.
Pretty fun juggling the enemies-in-combat (& being juggled).

 

[Tarrant]

Emmanuel2 duanth123 Nostaljaded ,

Thanks for the feedback. I actually pulled the trigger and picked up the VITA (roughly 90 seconds after Emmanuel posted) and ended up grabbing SoSC Revisited before diving into DT2.

Gotta say, although I never played the original.. SoSC Revisited is amazing -- very happy with the purchase. Battle speed is lightning quick when you need/want it to be, the graphics are probably the best I've seen in a crawler, character mechanics are complex enough to be interesting, and I'm very pleased with the dungeon design. What looks at first glance to be the standard 20x20 grid is anything but, and rather than rely on the more vanilla traps, spinners, dark areas, etc., the mazes are liberally peppered with.. er, unique flair, for lack of better phrasing. Been a long day. ;x Brain is fried.

Now if only I had more time to play... bah!

 

[Hobo Elf]

You guys do know the Playstation TV works with Vita games and costs about 4 times less right? It's not portable but I doubt you guys are taking it out of the house anyways and 45 dollars + vita game cost is a lot more reasonable given there aren't many good games (and ya know, SoSC is PC anyways).

PS TV doesn't play all games though. And the EU/NA versions also have different games that work on them, apparently.
The list of games that work on it is arbitrary and you need to find a list online of which titles you can play.

 

[Celerity]

Does it work with all the good ones though?