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[Deleted member 11480]

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[Delterius]

Stop playing dumb games.

 

[Delterius]

Diablo 1 is a dumb game.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Point me a single game where mages have a much harder time than warriors.

Alone?
uh, Ultima7? Gothic 1 and 2 on early levels to even mid game? ToEE (never saw anyone making it Fght/Thf/Mage hybrid or whatever).
IIRC Icewind Dale 1 or 2 have AI that make casting character top priority targets. You might make human shield/wall and put caster behind for hilarious effect.

 

[Night Goat]

For all my life I've played mages, wizards, sorcerers and the likes. Hard to explain the appeal, probably half of it has to do with the fact that with enough patience and lots of training and dedication you could potentially become an amazing swordsman, a master archer or an agile thief in real life but you could never become a mage. The other half is how flashy and powerful it all looks, the fantasy surrounding the wizards is awesome. The warrior was a dumb farmer who decided to take on a sword and start to practice but the wizard is a powerful being capable of splitting the earth and calling forth fallen gods from the 9th dimension and shit. It's a whole new level of 'KEWL!'

Now, 3 things
- Mages are usually highly educated characters;
- Stats wise mages are the "intelligent" class;
- You have many spells which means many awshum buttanz to press

It's pretty obvious how at some point all this fantasy got mixed up with reality itself and mages are now associated with "smart kids who can press all the buttons and is a very advanced player" while the warrior is the beginner's, user friendly class for the dumb kid who can only press 1 skill, if any.

Wait a minute...
All this shit couldn't be further from the truth. It's time to stop the lies and start the truths. r00fles!

I've been replaying many games where I always used to faceroll in as a mage, This time though as a warrior character. I still didn't find a single one where I had an easier time. Got my ass handed to me especially hard in Diablo 1. Jesus, how can you even play this shit on the harder difficulties of the HD mod with a warrior? Meanwhile, the sorc pretty much strolls through all floors. Let's not even mention games like Morrowind where mages are essentially cheat mode. The Dark Souls games are perhaps one of the biggest examples. Magic users are widely regarded as 'baby mode'. If you want to experience the true game, you have to melee.

The only partial exception would be games like the D&Ds where wizards have a tough early game, but wait a couple hours and sure enough they'll start to become much more powerful than your bread and butter knight.

Not to mention, in most RPGs the mage ONLY has to worry about 2 things in his stats build: damage and cast speed. The warrior, on the other hand, needs to have:
- damage
- attack speed
- hit chance
- HP
- resists
- dodge
- crit chance
- crit dodge
It's just much harder to balance everything. Oh, did I mentioned the fact that economy wise warriors have to spend a truckload of money on health pots and other shit to survive while the mage's expenditures are typically next to 0?

The "more buttons, so harder" argument is also absolutely imbecile. Warriors are naked in the battlefield. You have your weapon and armor and that's it, good fucking luck. In what universe would that be 'retard mode' compared to a guy who can teleport like a monkey, summon tanks, magic barriers (oh yeah! Glass cannons my ass, in most games mages acquire magic shields at some point), cast rains of fire from 2km away and freeze people who are starting to get remotely near him? Why would more OP options to deal with all problems mean tougher game?

I don't know, maybe my tastes just changed and I started to fully see the beauty behind a guy and his weapon facing a huge dragon with no flashy tricks and just his mortal skills. Still I double dare anyone here to find a manual or a user made guide for any game that recommends beginners to pick mages over warriors. They will ALL tell you that you should start with the warrior and that mages are for more advanced players.

Point me a single game where mages have a much harder time than warriors.

tl;dr mages are cool but they deserve the title of dumb characters, not warriors.

>would rather do the same thing every round than have to think about what to do
>thinks this means he's smart

No one thinks mages have a harder time than warriors, but they're still the thinking man's class because they're not just spamming autoattacks.

 

[Delterius]

There's a lot of dumb games that treat magic as a sort of thermonuclear color coded archery. But on the other hand, one shouldn't expect stick waving to get you far. Arguably, the first levels of AD&D has warriors on a clear advantage over most other things. But their potential can only be unlocked via magical equipment, potions and in other games, scrolls.

 

[hilfazer]

Point me a single game where mages have a much harder time than warriors.

Balrum.

 

[Quillon]

Mages are dumb but magic is dumber & should be banned from rpgs(along with fantasy races) for at least a decade so devs can think creatively again instead of shoving magic into every setting to make it "interesting".

 

[Sigourn]

What I'm going to say is simple but complicated at the same time:

1. A mastered warrior is weaker than a mastered mage.
2. At the same time, however, mastering a warrior is easier than mastering a mage.
3. "Mastering" is different than "maintaining". Like you mentioned, a Warrior needs more maintaining.
   
4. What this all means is that Timmy here may have 80% control of his Warrior, but Johnny and his 40% control over his Mage will still kick Timmy's ass, because Mages are just more powerful.

Mage classes reward commitment and intelligence. That is why they are much more stronger, since they generally demand more from the player. Especially when you play games like those inspired by D&D, which have much more complicated spells than Final Fantasy's "Fire", for example. I used to play this Argentine online game that was fairly basic in its mechanics, but simply put: warrior against mage, the mage will always win. To kill a mage you either had to be extremely skilled, or have some serious backup in the form of Invisibility, Paralyze, and other buffs. I'm guessing this is similar in the many different MMORPGs. In this example of mine, Warriors also needed a shitload of equipment to be competitive. Bow, lots of arrows, Health potions, Agility and Strength potions, armor, shield, weapons. Too many stuff to keep track of. A Mage only needed a staff, a robe, and a fucking hat. Mana potions, sure, and maybe Agility potions if you needed to maintain your buff during a battle. But Paralyze was extremely useful, and you could easily paralyze a Warrior and get other monsters to attack him, leaving him defenseless, and his high HP made little difference when literally it was you and two other monsters again him.

It was a very shitty game, though. At the end of the day, being a Warrior was easier provided you had backup. Getting close to an enemy and attacking him was easier than trying to land a spell on him, especially with the spastic gameplay of Argentum. (I'm the dark elf in white armor at 0:06)

 

[typical user]

Point me a single game where mages have a much harder time than warriors.

Dark Souls 3. You need to convert health pots into mana pots to cast spells, most spells are shitty even on high level, you need to find or buy these spells first. You need to level up atributes that increase those spells damage but still don't do jack shit against standard enemies.

Melee chars get more health pots, can specialize in one or two atributes and outdamage casters, they do not need to aim manually to hit shit. If you need to cheese stuff you can just pick bow and shoot arrows in the distance and not waste your potions to refill your mana. Plus if you fight a caster, you can use Vow of Silence to cancel any spell-casting in vincinity basically making casters useless. There is one NPC in DLC that does this the moment you pull out your talisman/staff.

Playing a mage in DS3 is like playing with guitar, you can get karma if you boast in internet but deep inside you know you are autistic cunt.

 

[Delterius]

Don't know anything about DS3, but in DS1 all you had to do was invest a little bit in HP and use Magic Weapon to wtfpwn everything between bosses.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Oh and magic casters in Aleshar - World of Ice have no easy time, they can get heart attacks most of the time even with developement magic trainings and stuff.
Priest in Inquisitor have hard times without companions, his first offensive spell comes at lvl15 and better spells eat mana like nitro from little jar.

 

[Elwro]

ADOM deals with this nicely. Mage-like chars have a difficult time early on, but have it easier later.

 

[Lhynn]

Its usually trading one complexity for another.
Spell selection and usage or positioning, gear, and skill usage.

Games are usually definitely easier as a caster, because spells usually heavily overcompensate for their caster weaknesses, or make them irrelevant, the fighter classes have to cope with said weaknesses to the best of the players ability instead.

 

[valcik]

Point me a single game where mages have a much harder time than warriors.

Planescape: Torment
There's quite a lot of combat-heavy maps in this one and I find high (20+) CON axe wielding fighter to be the easiest way. (Not that playing mage is impossibru or something, quite harder than warrior though.)

 

[Neanderthal]

Somethin cowardly an Elven about spellslingin, afraid o goin mano a mano like real men.

 

[Skittles]

Point me a single game where mages have a much harder time than warriors.

Darklands.

 

[Jason Liang]

NWN. Not turn based but 3E really favors taking warrior class levels early. A pure mage is quite challenging. This doesn't apply to Druids and Clerics which are way way OP.

 

[pippin]

NWN. Not turn based but 3E really favors taking warrior class levels early. A pure mage is quite challenging. This doesn't apply to Druids and Clerics which are way way OP.

lol no, arcane spellcasters are always powerful af in that game.

The problem for me is the lack of "simulation" aspects in both classes. You can learn spells, but your own memory isn't taken into consideration. Just as how very few rpgs seem to care about greases and grindstones for your swords, like twitcher does. We're extremely limited by the abstractions of it all.

 

[lili]

For all my life I've played mages, wizards, sorcerers and the likes. Hard to explain the appeal, probably half of it has to do with the fact that with enough patience and lots of herpderp

No. You are a weak nerd and wanted UNLIMITED POOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH to get Roxy to notice you.

 

[Kahr]

Point me a single game where mages have a much harder time than warriors.

Also Ultima Underworld.

 

[DraQ]

For all my life I've played mages, wizards, sorcerers and the likes. Hard to explain the appeal, probably half of it has to do with the fact that with enough patience and lots of training and dedication you could potentially become an amazing swordsman, a master archer or an agile thief in real life but you could never become a mage. The other half is how flashy and powerful it all looks, the fantasy surrounding the wizards is awesome. The warrior was a dumb farmer who decided to take on a sword and start to practice but the wizard is a powerful being capable of splitting the earth and calling forth fallen gods from the 9th dimension and shit. It's a whole new level of 'KEWL!'

Now, 3 things
- Mages are usually highly educated characters;
- Stats wise mages are the "intelligent" class;
- You have many spells which means many awshum buttanz to press

It's pretty obvious how at some point all this fantasy got mixed up with reality itself and mages are now associated with "smart kids who can press all the buttons and is a very advanced player" while the warrior is the beginner's, user friendly class for the dumb kid who can only press 1 skill, if any.

Wait a minute...
All this shit couldn't be further from the truth. It's time to stop the lies and start the truths. r00fles!

I've been replaying many games where I always used to faceroll in as a mage, This time though as a warrior character. I still didn't find a single one where I had an easier time. Got my ass handed to me especially hard in Diablo 1. Jesus, how can you even play this shit on the harder difficulties of the HD mod with a warrior? Meanwhile, the sorc pretty much strolls through all floors. Let's not even mention games like Morrowind where mages are essentially cheat mode. The Dark Souls games are perhaps one of the biggest examples. Magic users are widely regarded as 'baby mode'. If you want to experience the true game, you have to melee.

The only partial exception would be games like the D&Ds where wizards have a tough early game, but wait a couple hours and sure enough they'll start to become much more powerful than your bread and butter knight.

Not to mention, in most RPGs the mage ONLY has to worry about 2 things in his stats build: damage and cast speed. The warrior, on the other hand, needs to have:
- damage
- attack speed
- hit chance
- HP
- resists
- dodge
- crit chance
- crit dodge
It's just much harder to balance everything. Oh, did I mentioned the fact that economy wise warriors have to spend a truckload of money on health pots and other shit to survive while the mage's expenditures are typically next to 0?

The "more buttons, so harder" argument is also absolutely imbecile. Warriors are naked in the battlefield. You have your weapon and armor and that's it, good fucking luck. In what universe would that be 'retard mode' compared to a guy who can teleport like a monkey, summon tanks, magic barriers (oh yeah! Glass cannons my ass, in most games mages acquire magic shields at some point), cast rains of fire from 2km away and freeze people who are starting to get remotely near him? Why would more OP options to deal with all problems mean tougher game?

I don't know, maybe my tastes just changed and I started to fully see the beauty behind a guy and his weapon facing a huge dragon with no flashy tricks and just his mortal skills. Still I double dare anyone here to find a manual or a user made guide for any game that recommends beginners to pick mages over warriors. They will ALL tell you that you should start with the warrior and that mages are for more advanced players.

Smart class is a function of two things:

• difficulty
• degrees of freedom

You need both degrees of freedom (something mages tend to be unparalleled at) and difficulty (to prevent all those degrees of freedom from just being different ways to steamroll things).
If you only have the former, you still get a dumb class, only luck based, because with too few degrees of freedom you simpy don't have enough depth to account for difficulty other than demanding pure twitch skills or brutalizing player with RNG, which is even worse than just having the latter.

Point me a single game where mages have a much harder time than warriors.

Morrowind.

Spoiler

Allegedly.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I have the opposite experience to the OP, I never used to choose mage. The first time I chose mage was DA:O.

 

[Delterius]

Was that meant to lead into something.

 

[Skittles]

Was that meant to lead into something.

An extended fight with you, probably.