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Stellaris - Paradox new sci-fi grand strategy game

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One thing I'm not sure about is whether you could even find each other at all. Radar works in space because we're OK with very slowly and methodically scanning every inch of space. In a theoretical war where someone actually makes stealth spacecraft/stealth missiles, combined with the much greater distances compared to war on earth, you'd need massively more powerful radar systems to locate things. And using such a powerful radar would be basically advertising your location to everyone, making it suicidal, so instead both sides switch to passive radar and simply never find each other in the vastness of space.
The ship would be bright as a torch against all backgrounds except the sun. Since everything on the EM spectrum travels at the speed of light, it doesn't take long for thermal cameras to spot a spacecraft. Only exception would be if you place your craft so that the Sun is behind it. Then you need a telescope to spot the dark spot. Both options are entirely possible with current day technology, not to mention the technology we will have when space combat becomes reality.

Then you combine that with the fact that to minimise fuel usage, 99% of space craft would actually be travelling along few well known "highways" between planets, so you don't even need to scan the entire Solar system except in special cases.

Not at all. You think a small ship is brighter than the stars? Going by some rough estimates:

ISS is magnitude -5.9
Maximum magnitude observable by naked eye in perfect earth conditions is something like 6.50. Difference = 6.5 + 5.9 = 12.4
At a ~2.5x ratio per magnitude this is a brightness difference of 2.5^12.4 = 86000 times brighter
ISS distance is about 400 km, so to make it as dim as the dimmest stars viewable (bearing in mind that brightness decreases with the square of distance) we'd have to move it to only 400 * sqrt(86000) = 117k km. This is less than a third of the distance to the moon.

If we're talking space combat we're talking way greater distances than this, and probably much smaller and more stealthy ships. You'd need really, really good scanning equipment to pick it up. And keep in mind that the more powerful your telescope the less of the sky it can search at once.

I'm assuming we have some kind of nuclear-powered craft with ion thrusters or other purely electrical drive (like the EM drive). Basically infinite power to get anywhere and not burning hot fuel. In a war situation there's no reason you couldn't be way outside the normal operating zones.
 

Norfleet

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I'm assuming we have some kind of nuclear-powered craft with ion thrusters
Ion Thrusters emit absolutely shitty amounts of thrust, so you ain't going anywhere fast on those. But once you install a nuclear reactor dissipating waste heat at 1500K, you've got something that's REAL noticeable.

or other purely electrical drive (like the EM drive). Basically infinite power to get anywhere and not burning hot fuel. In a war situation there's no reason you couldn't be way outside the normal operating zones.
Assuming a magic space engine like that actually works, and therefore isn't ejecting white-hot plasma out of the back, you've still got to deal with the reactor that generates the power to run that thing radiating off heat at ~1500K or so. I say 1500K is an estimate because that's the temperature at which we can make a radiator that can actually survive, and for efficient heat radiation, you want it to be as hot as you can possibly allow it to be, otherwise they start getting less and less efficient and more and more fuckhuge. An object radiating at 1500K can be detected with existing technology from WAY beyond Pluto. There is absolutely no way this can be disguised: This heat has to go somewhere. The only way you could even temporarily hide the ship is to somehow prevent the heat from being radiated, at which point your ship will shortly melt. There's no way to NOT have heat: Even a 300K-ish crew environment will be detectable beyond Pluto. You could potentially hide it better if your vehicle was unmanned and dormant, able to cool to closer to the ambient temperatures of local uninteresting objects, but then what you have is not a spaceship, but an uninteresting lump of computer probe.

If you start installing INTERESTING things on your ship, like, say, antimatter reactors, guess what? The wavelengths of radiation emitted by an antimatter reaction are so distinctive that pretty much everything within a few hundred lightyears is gonna see THAT.

Stealth in space is not a thing. The best you can do is keep people from identifying what exactly they're seeing...but they're definitely going to see it and go "WTF IS THAT?", because trying to keep people from knowing WHAT they're seeing involves even more visibility than being seen in the first place.
 
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GarfunkeL

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You're thinking only of visual spectrum Manatee. Try looking at ISS with a thermal camera. Well, you can't do it because our atmosphere is warm enough to make it impossible with off-the-shelf stuff. But if both observer and target are in space, where the background is near absolute zero, then everything active is pretty damn bright in the IR spectrum.
 
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Ion Thrusters emit absolutely shitty amounts of thrust, so you ain't going anywhere fast on those. But once you install a nuclear reactor dissipating waste heat at 1500K, you've got something that's REAL noticeable.

Assuming a magic space engine like that actually works, and therefore isn't ejecting white-hot plasma out of the back, you've still got to deal with the reactor that generates the power to run that thing radiating off heat at ~1500K or so.

I'm assuming you have some big batteries and only run your reactor when you need to fill them. If you're in the inner solar system you might even be able to get by on solar.

You're thinking only of visual spectrum Manatee. Try looking at ISS with a thermal camera. Well, you can't do it because our atmosphere is warm enough to make it impossible with off-the-shelf stuff. But if both observer and target are in space, where the background is near absolute zero, then everything active is pretty damn bright in the IR spectrum.

Why do you think the ship is going to be hot? Could very well be almost as cold as the background. Doesn't need to be inhabited, just point a receiver at someone feeding it commands. Targeted communications like these can't be jammed or anything.
 

Norfleet

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I'm assuming you have some big batteries and only run your reactor when you need to fill them. If you're in the inner solar system you might even be able to get on by solar.
Batteries will not supply the power required to generate thrust. If you don't generate thrust, then you're still in the same place you were the last time you were spotted generating thrust, because no acceleration = totally predictable position.

Why do you think the ship is going to be hot? Could very well be almost as cold as the background. Doesn't need to be inhabited, just point a receiver at someone feeding it commands. Targeted communications like these can't be jammed or anything.
A ship which isn't inhabited isn't considered a "ship" anymore. At the point at which you are no longer sending beings into space, you are back to missiles again. Take a ship, remove crew, and therefore, remove any reason to need to return, and you have a missile.
 

Norfleet

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No we don't, we're just off on an irrelevant side tangent arguing about space things now.


They are difficult, complex, uninteresting and simply no fun.
Well, I'd certainly hope so. That's how it should be! FUN IS A FILTHY PARASITE!
 

Jason Liang

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Just take the physics from Star Control 2, make it 3D, and figure out how to control large 10k ship fleets instead of a single ship.

But seriously, Stellaris has a retarded popamole space combat system. Lasers vs missiles vs projectiles wtf. But then again so many things about Stellaris is popamole. You go from nuclear missiles to "tachyon lasers" in 100 years of reseach, wtf.
 

Raapys

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I don't see missiles being very effective. Those *will* be hot, simply due to burning fuel. So you'll detect them far away, and have hours to calmly shoot them down with laser or railgun-based defenses. There's also a mass-limit on how many rocket engines, warheads and fuel you can actually have on a ship, which makes it unfeasible to simply try to overwhelm point defenses.
 

Jason Liang

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This is how I imagine Stellaris:

You have 4 ship classes:

Corvette- This is roughly the size of a TIE Fighter or X-Wing; crew 1-2 people.
Destroyer- This is roughly the size of a Klingon Bird-of-Prey, the Defiant, or the Millenium Falcon; crew 10-20 people.
Cruiser- This is roughly the size of the Enterprise; crew 100-300 people.
Battleship- This is roughly the size of an Imperial Capital ship or a Borg cube; crew 1000+ people.

So you can imagine the sort of conventional weapons each ship class would carry, i.e. cruisers would fire photon torpedoes like the Enterprise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Enterprise_(NCC-1701-E)
The Enterprise E carries 16 phaser arrays and 10 torpedo launchers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_in_Star_Trek
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_weapons

Anyway, Stellaris has retarded combat where fleets start shooting each other when they are days apart and battles can last over a month. Whereas two galactic fleets at proper engagement distance would destroy eachother in a few hours. Everything about Stellaris' scale is way off.
 
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Grif

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Started another game with the most recent patch.

Quit when I reached the stage of having to watch Sector AI fuck up my planets yet again. (This time, letting new colonies starve while they dutifully... clear blockers?) Bravo, Paradox, for this continuing retardation.
 
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Anyway, Stellaris has retarded combat where fleets start shooting each other when they are days apart and battles can last over a month. Whereas two galactic fleets at proper engagement distance would destroy eachother in a few hours.
because you witnessed so many of them...
 

Jimmious

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
So apparently release date of the Utopia Expansion is 6th of April and price is 20 euros. Expensive.
 

trais

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Ok, so I decided to not remove Stellaris 1.4.1 from inventory to scratch my biannual 4X itch and... oh boy, I think I'm actually having fun. Yes, I'm as shocked as you are.

Although I feel like I've threw too much money at those Paradox bastards already for EU4 in its hundred fifty DLCs, I'm considering opening my wallet again for Stellaris when Utopia comes out, because RNGod blessed me with a really interesting game this time.



I turned Leviatians DLC off because space dragons is something I can surely live without. Since I've barely played Stellaris before, I set up the game in large 2 arm spiral galaxy, normal difficulty with default number of AIs, randomized starting locations. But to get any challenge at all, like 90% of them were given advanced start.
I've spawned near the very edge of the galaxy, which kinda sucks, but at least those advanced AIs won't be able to zergrush me from all 4 sides, right? So I've immediately started exploring my immediate surroundings and fortunately nothing more hostile than a lone void cloud (that I left the fuck alone because it would rape my starting corvettes without even breaking its voidcloudy sweat) was found. So at least for a time being, I had plenty of spacetime to expand.

Now I think it's a good time to mention that the game scripts spawn 2 planets of ideal type for your species near your homeworld, just so you have something to colonize early. But I don't like the idea of welfare colonies, so I've modded that shit out immediately. Still, RNGod decided that a neighborly system will have a not-ideal, but colonizable planet to which I quickly sent a science ship to survey the surface... only to discover that the surface of the planet was made out of pure, double-distilled and aged, weapon grade disappointment. Small, full of tile blockers and with shitty resources. It simply wasn't worth to send a colony ship there, so I decided to look for greener pastures elsewhere. So I looked, and looked, and looked... only to discover that my part of the galaxy doesn't have those kind of habitable planets that my species like. Plenty of others though, but they're kinda are useless at the game start.

I think the lesson to learn from this is: "who scoffs at prescripted welfare colonies will be building his empire tall".

Fortunately, I had few good clusters of systems with lots of good spots to build mining and research stations. With limited population and "encourage free thought" edict permanently on (because increased ethic divergence if all you have is a homeworld isn't an issue) I was teching quite fast, while strategically placed frontier outposts surrounded by a wreath of space stations were providing most of the minerals and research points. I was also lucky in tech roulette and managed to almost beeline to droid tech which in turn gave me an option to colonize planets without those picky meatbags organic pops who like their temperatures just right and don't like dying from dehydration. Pussies, all of them, I tell ya. Still pure droid planets aren't the best, because they:
a) are expensive to develop as you have to pay to build every pop and then pay maintnance costs every month
b) can't really do science
c) have decreased energy production.

But a colony is a colony, and that means additional starport and increased military fleet capacity. Which was becoming super handy super fast, as I finally had met another sentient species. Who happened to be "democratic crusaders" type and wasn't really getting along with my fanatic militarist, xenophobe junta. I decided to place my robot colony on the border (because planet's starport doubles as a pretty decent defense station, at least in early game) meanwhile carefully balancing my minerals between developing newly funded colony for long term profit and expanding my fleet to deter my new neighbors from showing me their democratic values, George Bush vs Saddam Hussein style.
Although I was successful enough to prevent the war, I couldn't explore further in that direction. So my science ships turned around and went the other way along the galaxy arm. Soon, the reports of additional habitable, but not for our species of course, planets came pouring in. Well, they were pouring for a while, until my science ships hit a brick wall called border Fallen Empire of Militant Isolationist variety space. Well shit, but at least I know nothing will be coming from that direction anytime soon. Which means I can pretty much leave that sector of space unclaimed until I can start terraforming and not worry about it too much. Nonetheless, that leaves the only direction to look for a new planet for my people toward galactic core, so checking that out that's gonna be my next exploration goal. I haven't gone too far in that direction but so far I've found another aliens, who look like giant blueberries with tiny arms and long legs, but they are pretty chill and we get along fine so far.

Meanwhile, I found out that my "democratic crusaders" neighbors had their own set problems. The smaller one was another empire, their declared rivals, awkwardly wedged between them and the edge of the galaxy. And apparently that "wedge" empire heard the old "enemy of my enemy is my friend" adage, since they happily agreed to sign a defensive pact with me. That made me feel secure enough to chill with the new military ships for a bit and instead look for a way to expand again. And when I was considering whether to make yet another robot colony or actually send some unlucky bastards from my homeworld to that godawful planet made of broken dreams and motherly neglect that I mentioned earlier, suddenly there was a happening that reminded me of another alternative.



But I'm tired of typing right now, so maybe I'll finish this wall of text tomorrow.
 

Norfleet

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Now I think it's a good time to mention that the game scripts spawn 2 planets of ideal type for your species near your homeworld, just so you have something to colonize early. But I don't like the idea of welfare colonies, so I've modded that shit out immediately.
Yeah, I think that particular thing exists precisely so nobody gets completely screwed over in their start position, because start position in these games is basically everything. Start position basically decided the path of civilization in the real world, too. Don't think of it as welfare colonies, think of it as a rudimentary attempt at start position balancing.
 

trais

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Of course you're having fun. Stellaris is great fun, for the first few hours.

Last time I played it (it was after the first big patch came out IIRC) I was bored stiff after something like 30 minutes, so few hours of entertainment sounds great.
 

trais

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Now I think it's a good time to mention that the game scripts spawn 2 planets of ideal type for your species near your homeworld, just so you have something to colonize early. But I don't like the idea of welfare colonies, so I've modded that shit out immediately.
Yeah, I think that particular thing exists precisely so nobody gets completely screwed over in their start position, because start position in these games is basically everything. Start position basically decided the path of civilization in the real world, too. Don't think of it as welfare colonies, think of it as a rudimentary attempt at start position balancing.

But balance is boring, unless it's a competitive game and Stellaris definitively isn't.
 

Norfleet

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The addition of a multiplayer mode sort of forces it into a competitive mold, though. Therein lies the rub. You could argue that multiplayer ruins these kinds of games, I suppose, but it's clear that some level of balance was intended by this.
 

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