From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Sentinel]

I had one char randomly fall through the floor and staying there in neverland even after reload.

I saw this after I typed up my post. Surely this is solvable either by Homeward Bone or using your Darksign?

Actually I don't remember if I tried it, but you may be right.
Am I the only one who also thinks animations looks a bit weird at 60 fps? I have the same feeling with DSII, which I also play at 30. It's like these games really weren't meant to be played above 30 fps. Maybe it's just me being silly, but only DSIII felt fine at unlocked framerate to me.

I definitely think hitboxes and invincibility frames get fucked up at any higher than 30fps in DS1.

 

[Multidirectional]

Which is the second ladder?

If I recall correctly it's in the Duke's Archives. Been a long time since I fell through any floors in DS1.

 

[cvv]

Meh, I've played through the game once already and remember pretty soon I got used to 30 FPS and not even notice it. I'll leave it be. A bit of an old school vibe never hurt anyone.

 

[Multidirectional]

Some games play fine at 30 fps. Some other games feel like shit at anything below 60.

 

[toroid]

Yeah the game physics get shittier the higher the framerate is. Gravity is affected, causing you to fall faster, and that makes plunging attacks difficult to pull off. And terrain collision gets really sticky and jagged. Some animations are broken by it, like bloodstain ghosts. Apparently some cutscenes are made unstable by it as well. It's really a mess. I wonder how many people immediately unlock to 60 fps without playing at 30, and don't realize their game is fucky. Unlocking framerate is helpful for performance, but definitely limit it to 30 fps.

 

[cvv]

First the background. When Codex voted DS1 one of the best RPGs evah I just rolled my eyes. An action weaboo wannabe RPG in the same hall of fame with Torment and Wizardry? Srsly?

Then I watched some youtube. I got intrigued but still - not my thing. Then everybody's talking about it and DS3 is about to drop and I'm ill with loads of time. Ok so I buy the stupid overhyped shit, give it an hour or two and trash it on Codex. Four days later it's in my Top 10.

Now going through my second playthrough. And it's not in my Top 10 anymore. It's my TOP ONE game of all times. Yes, after 20 years Wizardry 7 was dethroned. This game is, quite simply, a work of a fucking genius. The level design...I can't even. DS2 - that I love dearly - improved on many things (most, probably) but the level design is simply unmatched. The fact DS1 is loaded with flaws and mistakes and STILL gets the cake is telling.

Compared to DS3 that I've bitched about incessantly it's a night and day. I don't know how much Miyazaki worked on DS3 or DS1 but I know one thing for certain - those two games were NOT produced by the same dude.

 

[Quatlo]

I honestly hope DS1 will get "remade" just like DS2 got with scholar of first sin.
Second half is obviously unfinished and unpolished, it just sticks out like a sore thumb when you compare it to the genius level design of the game before you get the lordvessel.
DS3 just decided to get everything interesting and fun that DS2 added, throw it out of the window and pander to nostalgiafags in wrong way, it reminds me of the shitty brand of"nostalgia" that we've got with Pillars of Eternity.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

DS3 is a theme park ride.

 

[Ash]

What's with the hate for post-lord vessel level design in DS1? Yes, it's no longer as cleverly interconnected, big deal. From a traditional gameplay POV though? Just as diverse and interesting as the rest.

First the background. When Codex voted DS1 one of the best RPGs evah I just rolled my eyes. An action weaboo wannabe RPG in the same hall of fame with Torment and Wizardry? Srsly?

Then I watched some youtube. I got intrigued but still - not my thing. Then everybody's talking about it and DS3 is about to drop and I'm ill with loads of time. Ok so I buy the stupid overhyped shit, give it an hour or two and trash it on Codex. Four days later it's in my Top 10.

Now going through my second playthrough. And it's not in my Top 10 anymore. It's my TOP ONE game of all times. Yes, after 20 years Wizardry 7 was dethroned. This game is, quite simply, a work of a fucking genius. The level design...I can't even. DS2 - that I love dearly - improved on many things (most, probably) but the level design is simply unmatched. The fact DS1 is loaded with flaws and mistakes and STILL gets the cake is telling.

Compared to DS3 that I've bitched about incessantly it's a night and day. I don't know how much Miyazaki worked on DS3 or DS1 but I know one thing for certain - those two games were NOT produced by the same dude.

Lol. So many ignorant of this school of design. Japanese have been making games like this (on consoles, of course) since the 90s, and there's as much to love about them as any other great game style.
Perhaps where DS possibly rises above the rest is for once it actually has an interesting/moderately developed/maturely told story (rare for Japanese games in general), and it came along when the industry was neck-deep in decline and was a saving grace of sorts.

 

[Gentle Player]

What's with the hate for post-lord vessel level design in DS1? Yes, it's no longer as cleverly interconnected, big deal. From a traditional gameplay POV though? Just as diverse and interesting as the rest.

I don't understand it either. Only Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith is bad. Tomb of the Giants is excellent, and Duke's Archives and New Londo are perfectly good. I think the first half of the game is still better overall, but the latter is not terrible as people make out.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

What's with the hate for post-lord vessel level design in DS1? Yes, it's no longer as cleverly interconnected, big deal. From a traditional gameplay POV though? Just as diverse and interesting as the rest.

I don't understand it either. Only Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith is bad. Tomb of the Giants is excellent, and Duke's Archives and New Londo are perfectly good. I think the first half of the game is still better overall, but the latter is not terrible as people make out.

Agreed. The only objectively bad part of post-LV is Lost Izalith, everything else is fine.

 

[Ash]

So we've narrowed it down. What's wrong with Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith? Personally I loved that the environment came to the forefront as the primary enemy. The boss sucked ass though. Way too trial and error-based.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

So we've narrowed it down. What's wrong with Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith? Personally I loved that the environment came to the forefront as the primary enemy. The boss sucked ass though.

Demon Ruins is fine , Lost Izalith is a good backdrop but dragon butts, the boss and lackluster area itself brings it down.

Also, I've always hated the Centipede Demon fight.

 

[Ash]

Still more interesting than scurrying around like a sewer rat in the depths if you ask me.

1. Harvest Valley/Earthen Peak (DS2)
2. Great Hollow/Ash Lake (DS1)
3. Blighttown (DS1)
4. Sens Fortress (DS1)
5. Shrine of Almana (DS2)
6. Forbidden Woods (Bloodborne)
7. Aldia's Keep/Dragon Arie (DS2)
8. Shaded Woods (DS2)
9. Nightmare Frontier (Bloodborne)
10. Undead Berg (DS1)

Not played DS3 yet and only played Demon's for a few hours when visiting an acquaintance.

DS2 has some fucking fine level design, it's just not naturally interconnected anymore so tards decry it.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

Shit list by a shitposter, get the fuck out

 

[Ash]

Yes, I like DS2 probably as much as the first, assuming that's what you're whining about. Suck a dick for not liking a great game.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

DS2 can only be liked for gameplay and PvP, liking it for anything else is literally a psychological disorder

 

[cvv]

The geniusness of DS1 level design is not just in that it's interconnected. It's also the vibe, the way it makes you feel. Darkroot Garden/Basin is not exactly the avatar of complexity but the vibe is awesome.

Plus all the secrets, hidey holes and hidden details - tho they've overdone it at places. I hate that you can discover many things only through a sheer accident if you don't look at wiki or messages (for me messages have been the most hateful feature throughout the series). Sooo many times I thought to myself "How the FUCK have people figured out THAT? Fuck you Miyazaki".

Three most brutal examples:

- those two hidden walls in Blighttown. Are you kidding me? Maybe (big maybe) a few crazy completionists that poke every wall they see (what a fun way to play the game btw) could find the first one but the second one behind the chest? Jesus. And there are TWO big areas hidden behind them!
- in my first blind playthrough (offline) I never figured out how to get to enter the DLC I paid for and was looking forward to. When I killed the hydra I ran around mapping out the place. I discovered the cave in the corner but it was empty. I thought "huh, another unfinished nook...whatever let's go on". Never EVER it occured to me to go back there. Because obviously the golem spawns only after a loading screen. Very clever From. When I finally stood in front of Gwyn's fog door without ever coming across the DLC area I thought I could run through all the areas again, check every nook and cranny but I couldn't muster the strength so I checked wiki.
- I never got back into the Asylum. I found the nest, curled like a ball but after a while of nothing happening I thought maybe I'm missing a quest item or some such. Got all the way to Gwyn without finding it obviously. Because it's a great idea to have players wait 15 seconds or so before the cutscene kicks in (same with the Gravelord covenant). So it's another two areas I never entered (second Asylum and Ariamis).

I love the quirks and secrets but this is way too much. I basically never found a good third of the game (well I did but only after checking the wiki). DS3 overfixed it by stomping out everything remotely quirky and interesting and secrety. I'm not saying you have to find everything on your first playthrough even if you just blindly stumble forward without paying attention. But give players a chance ffs.

And despite all of this it's still the best game ever made.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

- those two hidden walls in Blighttown. Are you kidding me? Maybe (big maybe) a few crazy completionists that poke every wall they see (what a fun way to play the game btw) could find the first one but the second one behind the chest? Jesus. And there are TWO big areas hidden behind them!

found accidentally by rolling into the wall, had no idea what's behind.

- in my first blind playthrough (offline) I never figured out how to get to enter the DLC I paid for and was looking forward to. When I killed the hydra I ran around mapping out the place. I discovered the cave in the corner but it was empty. I thought "huh, another unfinished nook...whatever let's go on". Never EVER it occured to me to go back there. Because obviously the golem spawns only after a loading screen. Very clever From. When I finally stood in front of Gwyn's fog door without ever coming across the DLC area I thought I could run through all the areas again, check every nook and cranny but I couldn't muster the strength so I checked wiki.

Basically, all 'quests' in DS1 are a bitch and unclear on how to finish them.

- I never got back into the Asylum. I found the nest, curled like a ball but after a while of nothing happening I thought maybe I'm missing a quest item or some such. Got all the way to Gwyn without finding it obviously. Because it's a great idea to have players wait 15 seconds or so before the cutscene kicks in (same with the Gravelord covenant). So it's another two areas I never entered (second Asylum and Ariamis).

same on the 1st playthrough. I kept curling and curling in the nest

 

[Elwro]

Since we're coming out, I have to say that DS1 is my top one now, too. (ADOM is second, maybe.)

On my 1st playthrough one moment of revelation was when I turned to look in a different direction in the Darkroot Garden; I had thought it was just a forest-like corridor to the Butterfly level. Then I noticed the path to the open space with the city at the distance. Went down, noticed the hydra, ran back. Killed the long weapon knight. Found an awesome shield and a bonfire after him. Took the elevator down, got raped by the drakes in a completely new area. In 10 minutes I realized how big and unpredictable the game is... and that it has few signposts.

(I did discover the 2 secrets in Blighttown on my own; however, I thought the tree was just a boring dead end and missed the Ash Lake completely on my 1st playthrough . I have to say that I was quite amazed when I found the Lost Izalith secret bonfire.)


As to how I got the game. I went to a store where the seller practically discouraged me from buying it -- he said 'I played it for 20 hours and then I saw a YouTube video where someone got to the same point in 5 minutes, I'm not playing that shit, it's just not fun'. I hadn't realized that it could be fun. Months later (!) my wife bought me the game as a present, and we spent many, many evenings figuring out the game together.


I'd love to check out the older FROM titles. However, on PCs you can use DosBox etc, but I have no idea how to proceed with the older console games. Could anyone give me some pointers?

 

[pakoito]

I'd love to check out the older FROM titles. However, on PCs you can use DosBox etc, but I have no idea how to proceed with the older console games. Could anyone give me some pointers?

The emulation thread in GD

A community-driven wiki

 

[cvv]

I'd love to check out the older FROM titles.

This. Mainly to compare. I'm very curious if DeS and DS1 greatness is due to Miyazaki or if From always produced great games and Miyazaki just improved on them a bit.

From what I've understood Miyazaki took over an almost completed DeS and "made it better". I'd give my left nut to play the pre-Miyazaki version.

 

[KILLER BEAR]

Demon's Souls always looked way cooler to me, at least in the art department:

 

[Matador]

What's with the hate for post-lord vessel level design in DS1? Yes, it's no longer as cleverly interconnected, big deal. From a traditional gameplay POV though? Just as diverse and interesting as the rest.

I don't understand it either. Only Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith is bad. Tomb of the Giants is excellent, and Duke's Archives and New Londo are perfectly good. I think the first half of the game is still better overall, but the latter is not terrible as people make out.

Agree. Also you get to play the good DLC with great bosses, so I think people overstate the lack of quality of the second half of the game.

 

[Gentle Player]

This. Mainly to compare. I'm very curious if DeS and DS1 greatness is due to Miyazaki or if From always produced great games and Miyazaki just improved on them a bit.

They absolutely made great games before Miyazaki and Souls. Of all Fromsoft games I have played to completion (all Souls, all King's Field, all Echo Night, both Shadow Tower) I think King's Field IV, along with the original Dark Souls, is one of the finest. I will go as far as to say that, were KFIV a PC title and more widely known, it would be part of the Codex canon alongside Looking Glass Studios classics whose great level and world design KFIV is equal to.

I should also note that KFIV has the best "fast-travel" system of any pseudo-open world game I've ever played. It rewards exploration and discovery of secrets, and there's even a bit of thought and strategy in how to use it. Souls games adopted many things from King's Field (including a modified flask system), and I think it's such a shame that this one thing that they haven't borrowed.