Decline Game Shilling on Codex: Accepted or Not?

[Charles Eli Cheese]

.net is shit though. I can agree with that. Normally I am not going to play a game that requires installing some stupid shit like that.

But he is some indy guy, it is unlikely he will make whole game engine with zero dependencies.

I do, as do other indie devs I know. That's the basic engineering groundwork you do before you seriously think about making a game. In the long run it's less painful than .Net or Unity.

 

[gaussgunner]

I do, as do other indie devs I know. That's the basic engineering groundwork you do before you seriously think about making a game. In the long run it's less painful than .Net or Unity.

What's wrong with using third party game engines besides the financial part?

It's a straitjacket. You get stuck with all their IDEs and libraries and bugs, and in the latter case, Unity Asset Store apparently. And it's all inferior.

For players, .NET is an installation headache even on Windows, barely works on WINE if at all. Unity is just slow... think PoE and WL2 load screens. Why the fuck are mid-size studios using such amateur shit?

 

[Charles Eli Cheese]

I do, as do other indie devs I know. That's the basic engineering groundwork you do before you seriously think about making a game. In the long run it's less painful than .Net or Unity.

What's wrong with using third party game engines besides the financial part?

It's a straitjacket. You get stuck with all their IDEs and libraries and bugs, and in the latter case, Unity Asset Store apparently. And it's all inferior.

For players, .NET is an installation headache even on Windows, barely works on WINE if at all. Unity is just slow... think PoE and WL2 load screens. Why the fuck are mid-size studios using such amateur shit?

Because nobody knows how to program any more.

 

[Goral]

Age of Decadence surpasses Underrail.

Spoiler

​

toro
I guess I'm doing it right.

Spoiler

And to answer your/OP question - promoting superb, obscure games is more than OK, spamming about RTwP/FPP popamole games made by studios with over 100 employees is not (and Obsidian until recently had about 200) since they don't need any amateurish promotion. Codex for some time now resembles some Obsidian/inXile fanpage.

 

[toro]

Age of Decadence surpasses Underrail.

Spoiler

​

toro
I guess I'm doing it right.

Spoiler

And to answer your/OP question - promoting superb, obscure games is more than OK, spamming about RTwP/FPP popamole games made by studios with over 100 employees is not (and Obsidian until recently had about 200) since they don't need any amateurish promotion. Codex for some time now resembles some Obsidian/inXile fanpage.

I apologize for mentioning you in that post. I'm not really interested in your opinion ... about anything.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

The best praise a man should have for something is adequate or OK. Anything more than that and you lose dignitas.

This is correct. Not complaining (too much) is all the praise that's necessary.

 

[FeelTheRads]

FeelTheRads just hates AoD design and couldn't play it for more than 5 minutes

Funny thing is, both toro and FeelTheRads don't know Age of Decadence (the former has played only a bit, hasn't even finished it, the latter none at all)

Would you decide please? Did I play it for no more than 5 minutes or not at all?

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...e-game-of-the-year.106067/page-4#post-4311525 (saying that "the game teleports you from place to place and tells you about events and people you never knew about like you are supposed to know about them?")

Just because you put it in small lettering, doesn't make it less of an apologist lie. I played enough of the game to see that happen.
And then, I think probably later in that thread comes VD and explains that it's because things happen without your input and you have to take those as news reaching you or some retarded bullshit like that.

So, yeah, I did play enough to drop it as the piece of shit that it is. Or, considering that while I played it I was unsure if I was actually playing or I was merely a shell through which VD played, maybe I didn't play it after all.


But, I will not complete it even once, let alone 7 times, which is, as I understand, the required minimum to get how it's the best game ever. So, sorry, you can continue with your butthurt about how people didn't play it, but the game is still shit.

The reason for that is because contrary to toro, Sykar, FeelTheRads and other UR fanboys you weren't lying

You really shouldn't call other people fanboys when you were exposed for a rabid fanboy who posts on any forum he finds about how great AoD is and how much better it is than Underrail. You're only really answering "you're stupid" with "no, you're stupid".
And, I will remind you again that I rated Underrail with a 4 (which as time passes I realize could easily be a 3 instead), while you and your buttbuddies rated AoD 5 and keep going about it like it's the best thing since Skyrim.

 

[gaussgunner]

Well. It's nice for an indie rpg dev to have so many diehard fans. However, if ever find myself with fans shilling this blatantly, I'll publicly admonish them, not encourage them. It's unethical, low-class, and leaves the developer open to accusations of deeper corruption. I wouldn't want to be the lightning rod for GamerGate 2.0, butt of "Five 'Girls', Burgers And Fries!!" memes.

Am I surprised that people game the rating systems on Steam etc? Nope. Been happening for 20 years on sites like Amazon, not to mention popularity contest forums like Slashdot and Reddit. This is only further proof that you can never trust user generated content or ratings. Obviously.

 

[Goral]

(...) if ever find myself with fans shilling this blatantly (...)

You wish. And I wouldn't call exposing lies as "shilling", I'm pretty sure that if someone would say "this unity game looks not too shabby" about a game you would make in your own engine and someone would correct some uninformed person you wouldn't mind. Anyway, we can theorize here how you would react but it's worthless, make a game fist, release it and then we can talk.

I'll publicly admonish them, not encourage them

lol
Where did VD "encourage them"? Show me exact quote because you're starting to act like undertards. Also, if "by blatant shilling" you mean posting a review in 3 places then you should go to Bethesda or Bioware forums or look at Steam reviews of their games. At least I did it for an obscure game whose developers don't have the money for marketing.

 

[gaussgunner]

lol
Where did VD "encourage them"? Show me exact quote because you're starting to act like undertards.

Undertards? I've never even played Underrail, because it's .NET based (and up front about it).

And I don't get this AOD / Underrail rivalry. According to the GOTY data, AOD fans in general love Underrail too, and vice versa.

Also, if "by blatant shilling" you mean posting a review in 3 places then you should go to Bethesda or Bioware forums or look at Steam reviews of their games. At least I did it for an obscure game whose developers don't have the money for marketing.

Why do it at all?



Ok, quotes. From ITS forums.
Vahha started a thread called Guys, let's put more game reviews on Steam. And GOG!

Page 1: toro's screenshot where Vince thanks a guy for mass-downvoting negative reviews. "That's all we can ask for".

Page 2: Vince says,

More positive impressions will be greatly appreciated (since the negative reviewers have a tendency to make shit up to justify the negative score)

...which is patently false. You only need to play the game for 5 minutes (with fanboy blinders off) to see the truth of the criticisms.

 

[gaussgunner]

Basically VD has surrounded himself with sycophants on his forum. As a fan of Roman history he ought to know better.

 

[Irenaeus]

You only need to play the game for 5 minutes (with fanboy blinders off) to see the truth of the criticisms.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Page 1: toro's screenshot where Vince thanks a guy for mass-downvoting negative reviews. "That's all we can ask for".

Selective quoting? I thanked him for posting a positive review, which was his first sentence. Writing a positive review if you liked our game IS all we can ask for.

Page 2: Vince says,

More positive impressions will be greatly appreciated (since the negative reviewers have a tendency to make shit up to justify the negative score)

...which is patently false. You only need to play the game for 5 minutes (with fanboy blinders off) to see the truth of the criticisms.

The game is far from perfect but claims like "you can't beat more two guys ever" or "combat is broken and unplayable" or "there are 5 quests in the starting town" or "you can't finish the game unless you have the right build" or "you have to min-max" are false. I didn't say that all negative reviews are false, only that they have a tendency to greatly exaggerate the flaws or make them up.

Anyway, when we released the game, the easiest way to boost the rating was to trade keys for reviews. It was almost like an industry - we were bombarded with emails offering this services and we said no every time. It's gotten so bad that Steam had to step in and separate copies bought vs keys given, making it clear who gave out keys like candy and who didn't. We have 20 key activated reviews, which is a very low number. They all can be traced to copies bought via BMT or legit media (one negative actually). For the record we sold over 2,000 copies via BMT and gave 1,500 keys to those who wanted to play it on Steam, but we never traded copies for reviews. There are quite a few games on Steam that have more "activated keys" reviews than paying customers' review, whereas we have 1,225 "bought the game on Steam" reviews.

 

[gaussgunner]

The game is far from perfect but claims like "you can't beat more two guys ever" or "combat is broken and unplayable" or "there are 5 quests in the starting town" or "you can't finish the game unless you have the right build" or "you have to min-max" are false. I didn't say that all negative reviews are false, only that they have a tendency to greatly exaggerate the flaws or make them up.

I won't get into splitting hairs. Fact is, the glowingly positive reviews left me disappointed when I tried the demo myself.

Anyway, when we released the game, the easiest way to boost the rating was to trade keys for reviews. It was almost like an industry - we were bombarded with emails offering this services and we said no every time. It's gotten so bad that Steam had to step in and separate copies bought vs keys given, making it clear who gave out keys like candy and who didn't. We have 20 key activated reviews, which is a very low number. .....

Indeed, I've heard all about it. I can't accuse you of gaming that system.

Like I said, you're surrounded by sycophants. Your game is OK but they're telling you it's awesome, and you're listening to them while dismissing valid complaints, and not being your own harshest critic either. I see developers doing this when they have 3 fans, so it's not just you. But that's what's happening.

Anyway. I'd rather spend my time building Incline than dwell on AOD's flaws.

Obviously if games like AOD and Underrail can attract so many players in spite of their weaknesses, there's a huge demand for more hardcore indie RPGs. Heh, that's a shocking revelation.

 

[Jazz_]

''More positive impressions will be greatly appreciated (since the negative reviewers have a tendency to make shit up to justify the negative score''

I can understand being frustrated at unfair criticism but saying that people who didn't like the game had to ''make shit up'' to justify their negative score sounds very delusional.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Vault Dweller]

''More positive impressions will be greatly appreciated (since the negative reviewers have a tendency to make shit up to justify the negative score''

I can understand being frustrated at unfair criticism but saying that people who didn't like the game had to ''make shit up'' to justify their negative score sounds very delusional.

What do you think that someone who failed to beat the first combat encounter would write? Or someone who beat the first fight but died everywhere else, forming an impression that combat simply can't be won? Would they write that combat is very challenging but not for them or would they write that it's horribly broken and unplayable and anyone who wants to try the game must avoid it like the plague? Same with gated content or hard checks or any other polarizing features that most people aren't used to.

Like I said, you're surrounded by sycophants. Your game is OK but they're telling you it's awesome, and you're listening to them while dismissing valid complaints, and not being your own harshest critic either. I see developers doing this when they have 3 fans, so it's not just you. But that's what's happening.

You've ever heard me saying that it's awesome? The game has many flaws and anyone who followed the development from the demo to release knows that we listen to criticism, take it seriously, make changes, etc. I'm well aware of every single fucking flaw in the game and they are far too numerous, unfortunately, but that doesn't mean that every complaint is the gospel's truth, objective and valid.

 

[King Crispy]

You seem upset, Vault Dweller.

 

[Darth Roxor]

You've ever heard me saying that it's awesome? The game has many flaws and anyone who followed the development from the demo to release knows that we listen to criticism, take it seriously, make changes, etc. I'm well aware of every single fucking flaw in the game and they are far too numerous, unfortunately, but that doesn't mean that every complaint is the gospel's truth, objective and valid.

there we have it

vault dweller finally admits his game is shit

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why would I be upset, Crispy?

 

[golgo21]

and thus the second mod war begun........

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[KILLER BEAR]

 

[Goral]

Like I said, you're surrounded by sycophants. Your game is OK but they're telling you it's awesome, and you're listening to them while dismissing valid complaints, and not being your own harshest critic either. I see developers doing this when they have 3 fans, so it's not just you. But that's what's happening.

lol
It's funny coming from toro's sycophant. You gobble up whatever he says without second thought and are very prone to suggestion. You also can't tell the difference between a sycophant and apologist/advocate . Like I said in this thread already, I'm Age of Decadence apologist, not VD apologist. It's as retarded as saying that VD is defending us when he's defending himself and his firm (and I'm defending myself, although in this particular case I defend VD by the way). Anyway, it's pointless to prove that I'm not a camel, a retard won't understand anyway.

Look at Colony Ship Game updates to see how silly you are. If you'll read them you will see that they're trying to address the flaws that were in AoD (but maybe introduce new ones, it remains to be seen) but at least they're experimenting and trying something fresh instead of going the same formula. Which proves that you only see what toro shows you and you won't try to do your own research. And no one on this forum said that AoD is without any flaws, certainly not me:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...nce-november-update.78398/page-2#post-2393773

What's more they do listen to the feedback, more than any other developer I know (see my example with Styg or his attitude when it comes to Deep Caverns).
Here are some examples (mainly issues I've had with the game which where fixed):
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...nce-february-update.80804/page-3#post-2515678 (they've added a tutorial)
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,3328.msg104141.html#msg104141 (they've listened and improved the map interface greatly for example and if you look a few posts back you'll see they've also addressed most of my complaints)
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,3413.msg105382.html#msg105382 (listened here too)
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,3952.msg130940.html#msg130940
etc. etc.
There are tons of posts criticizing the game and many of the issues were dealt with. You ask a question on Steam/Iron Tower forum or here and someone from IT will respond. Try it yourself and then try it with Underrail or any other game and see the difference.

I only know 1 case where VD said PR bullshit like "we'll look into it" instead of "there is almost 0% chance of that" (at least that's how I've perceived it, may be he was honest and they're working on it): http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7256.msg146717.html#msg146717 but at least I know they've read it. With Styg there wasn't even that, no response at all.

 

[FeelTheRads]

More positive impressions will be greatly appreciated (since the negative reviewers have a tendency to make shit up to justify the negative score)

lol

While positive reviews which are typically "THE BEXST THING EVAR" without any explanation are ethically better, of course.

Funny how if it's AOD it means you make shit up to justify the negative score.

Like I said, you're surrounded by sycophants. Your game is OK but they're telling you it's awesome, and you're listening to them while dismissing valid complaints, and not being your own harshest critic either. I see developers doing this when they have 3 fans, so it's not just you. But that's what's happening.

Well, he managed to give the game this aura of x-treme hardcoreness that makes it sound like if you go through 10 minutes without dying (avoiding scripts is teh hard) you're some sort of game master so obviously every mentally disabled fucker playing this sees himself as some sort of Captain N that must defend his realm.