Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Lacrymas]

That was my understanding but apparently you can go default also. I read it in SA forums from someone and Josh hasn't corrected him, then he confirmed there'll be 3(2 sub + default) in the stream.

I think they will keep the base class kits and let us choose between the base class and two additional modified kits.
That said, I also fear the subclasses can be kinda meaningless. I mean the feats already define builds - and this element was missing in the IE games.

Then maybe they will work like class kits. I don't know how I feel about that, since in the IE games there were clearly superior class kits to the base class (like totemic druid being far superior to normal druid because the shapeshifting was useless in general). He said that he'll write an update on the classes (or maybe only multi-classing) today, so we'll see.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

I think it's going to be 2 subclasses per class and you won't be able to choose a pure barbarian for example. There is no way this isn't going to backfire horribly. They'd either have to create 11 more classes for the subclasses to have a distinct feeling from each other, which is too much of a workload and they won't do that (or if they do, it will be half-assed at best and WILL spread the classes too thin), or make them 2 feats apart from each other, which will make the subclasses pointless in the first place.

It's not the case. You don't have to choose a subclass. You can, if you want to specialize your character further.

 

[Prime Junta]

Prime Junta you know what you must do. Go use twitter or something and tell that removing health and only leaving endurance will make the game a slugfest of heals.

 

[Quillon]

edit: posted already, sorry

 

[FreeKaner]

That was my understanding but apparently you can go default also. I read it in SA forums from someone and Josh hasn't corrected him, then he confirmed there'll be 3(2 sub + default) in the stream.

I think they will keep the base class kits and let us choose between the base class and two additional modified kits.
That said, I also fear the subclasses can be kinda meaningless. I mean the feats already define builds - and this element was missing in the IE games.

Then maybe they will work like class kits. I don't know how I feel about that, since in the IE games there were clearly superior class kits to the base class (like totemic druid being far superior to normal druid because the shapeshifting was useless in general). He said that he'll write an update on the classes (or maybe only multi-classing) today, so we'll see.

That's mainly because the kits in D&D had marginal or completely irrelevant trade-offs. I am sure Sawyer will make them significant enough.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Prime Junta you know what you must do. Go use twitter or something and tell that removing health and only leaving endurance will make the game a slugfest of heals.

Injuries are in fact a good substitute. I don't think it's a needed change, but it's not really a departure either. They would have worked well in Tyranny if they hadn't upped the camping supplies limit to an absurd degree (6 in hard), and it has the potential to be more punitive than the endurance/health+knockdown injuries in PoE2.

By the way, now that I think about it, someone should ask him about the camping supply limit, because that would be an important change more worth talking about than the health/endurance or endurance/injuries part.

 

[Prime Junta]

That's mainly because the kits in D&D had marginal or completely irrelevant trade-offs.

This. Why would you ever pick a standard paladin over a cavalier or inquisitor?

 

[Quillon]

That's mainly because the kits in D&D had marginal or completely irrelevant trade-offs.

This. Why would you ever pick a standard paladin over a cavalier or inquisitor?

Then why will there be standard paladin in addition to subs? Choice for choice's sake...

 

[FreeKaner]

That's mainly because the kits in D&D had marginal or completely irrelevant trade-offs.

This. Why would you ever pick a standard paladin over a cavalier or inquisitor?

Kensai is a good example of a good trade-off kit that you use in combination with dual-classing to make most of. If all sub-classes are significant enough like that, they'll be interesting.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Fucking Sawyer just can't keep his autism in check, can he? They've had a half-decent system going, so he just had to go and start dicking around with it.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Well, the campaign has now basically the same amount of backers that Wasteland 3 ended up with, 17.706 backers (one backer short from Wasteland right now). While Wasteland 3 managed to get 871K from backers, PoE2 has 1.018M.

I don't know if this speaks well for Pillars, or very badly for Wasteland.

 

[Prime Junta]

That's mainly because the kits in D&D had marginal or completely irrelevant trade-offs.

This. Why would you ever pick a standard paladin over a cavalier or inquisitor?

Then why will there be standard paladin in addition to subs? Choice for choice's sake...

I've been wondering that for a while.

Given Josh's obsession with though, I'd be incredibly surprised if P2 has the same problem.

 

[FreeKaner]

Fucking Sawyer just can't keep his autism in check, can he? They've had a half-decent system going, so he just had to go and start dicking around with it.

It's hard to keep the beast on a leash when one possesses autism at the magnitude Sawyer does.

 

[FreeKaner]

That's mainly because the kits in D&D had marginal or completely irrelevant trade-offs.

This. Why would you ever pick a standard paladin over a cavalier or inquisitor?

Then why will there be standard paladin in addition to subs? Choice for choice's sake...

Additional variety? Subclass and multiclass combinations? Think Kensai mage, you can play a vanilla fighter if that's what you want to do but you can also kit into a kensai mage dual-class for a completely different gameplay. Considering for example PoE wizards also have some very strong self-buffs, it could also have interesting combinations.

 

[Perkel]

Well there are two ideas:

per encounter
- which means ability can never be strong
- you can spam it

per rest
- which allows for abilities to be really powerful
- you can't spam it and you need to think more outside of box about mage (like using scrolls wands making him mediacore fighter or getting bow sling or whatever for support)

Guess which one would pick Josh Sawyer...

As if 10 seconds for most of the spells time is fucking long. I bet they will make most of spells now 5 or even 3 seconds long.


I think druids had best and imo logic realization of it because as druid grows stronger weakest abilities can become per encounter.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Try playing PoE with ie mod option to have abilities and spells be used per encounter...

It's a clusterfuck, spells flying right and left, completely ruins the already mediocre combat.

 

[Quillon]

That's mainly because the kits in D&D had marginal or completely irrelevant trade-offs.

This. Why would you ever pick a standard paladin over a cavalier or inquisitor?

Then why will there be standard paladin in addition to subs? Choice for choice's sake...

Additional variety? Subclass and multiclass combinations? Think Kensai mage, you can play a vanilla fighter if that's what you want to do but you can also kit into a kensai mage dual-class for a completely different gameplay. Considering for example PoE wizards also have some very strong self-buffs, it could also have interesting combinations.

Not a DnD player. I'll prolly gonna pick a class/subclass and stick with it till the end since multiclassing will prevent me from latest level abilities. And my worry is the abilities and whatnot will spread too thin over the 3 variations of a class. If it were to split in two, I'd be more comfortable with its idea.

 

[Urthor]

This. Why would you ever pick a standard paladin over a cavalier or inquisitor?

Captain balance, he's our hero, he's gonna nerf the sub classes down to zero!

 

[Lacrymas]

Kensai is a good example of a good trade-off kit that you use in combination with dual-classing to make most of. If all sub-classes are significant enough like that, they'll be interesting.

Kensai is one of the fringe cases though, since, by multi-/dual-classing to mage, you turn his weakness into a strength. Other multiclasses are less dramatic.

 

[Parabalus]

Captain balance, he's our hero, he's gonna nerf the sub classes down to zero!

Subclasses should be on the level of Kensai regarding mechanics changes. The EE kits (heresy I know) Blackguard, the 2 Monk ones, Shadowdancer don't seem that bad as an example of the level of differentiation either.

Don't like the removal of health/endurance, thought it was good. Especially dislike the tyranny wounds system, it's closest comparison is the fatigue in 1.0 and they ditched that because it was stupid.

 

[FreeKaner]

Kensai is a good example of a good trade-off kit that you use in combination with dual-classing to make most of. If all sub-classes are significant enough like that, they'll be interesting.

Kensai is one of the fringe cases though, since, by multiclassing to mage, you turn his weakness into a strength. Other multiclasses are less dramatic.

Exactly what I mean however. Most of D&D kits are uninteresting/useless/straight-up-better not because the idea of a trade-off kit is fundamentally flawed but the execution is poor in D&D. So if there are unique interactions or if the trade-off is strong enough then the kits can be there for variety, gameplay opportunities while maintaining vanilla class usefulness.

 

[Prime Junta]

Exactly what I mean however. Most of D&D kits are useless not because the idea of a trade-off kit is fundamentally flawed but the execution is poor in D&D. So if there are unique interactions or if the trade-off is strong enough then the kits can be there for variety, gameplay opportunities while maintaining vanilla class usefulness.

Pillars 1 already had subclasses of a sort -- for priests and paladins. If they do the same, more or less, for the other classes, it'll work out fine.

 

[FreeKaner]

Exactly what I mean however. Most of D&D kits are useless not because the idea of a trade-off kit is fundamentally flawed but the execution is poor in D&D. So if there are unique interactions or if the trade-off is strong enough then the kits can be there for variety, gameplay opportunities while maintaining vanilla class usefulness.

Pillars 1 already had subclasses of a sort -- for priests and paladins. If they do the same, more or less, for the other classes, it'll work out fine.

I think they are different things because the paladin orders or gods for priests have no trade-offs, only opportunity costs. You can't not have an order or god also. If subclasses are same, it will be poor execution.

 

[The Bishop]

The thing with Vancian spell system in a game like PoE is that you really need to have a strategic layer, some real attrition mechanics to make it systemically relevant. This means that you should be able run out of resources at some point and lose game as a result. Being able to run back to town and replenish everything at any moment makes the whole foundation of Vancian completely irrelevant and pointless. And I don't think Obsidian is going to risk making strategic loss in PoE 2 a thing. They certainly don't want to deal with thousands of complaints about getting stuck unable to deal with current challenge and not having a recent save to fall back to.

Making everything encounter based does trivialize gameplay in theory, but considering that rests aren't actually limited, not in practice. It just makes the system more relevant to the way game actually works. Personally I'd rather they work on making rests truly limited, like barring doors behind you upon entering dungeons, or making so that you're significantly penalized in quests if you abandon them to go rest in a middle of action. Then Vancian would be just perfect. But since it's very unlikely they ever going to do any of this, they might as well do away with pseudo limitations only reinforced by annoyance of loading screens. At least per encounter limitations can be real.

 

[Prime Junta]

I think they are different things because the paladin orders or gods for priests have no trade-offs, only opportunity costs. You can't not have an order or god also. If subclasses are same, it will be poor execution.

Unless you're required to pick a subclass. (Or, alternatively, the designers design all of them as subclasses and just pick one and call it the base class.)