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Game News Looks like Pillars of Eternity 2 is going to be officially announced soon

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aweigh

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Fair enough. I do think many here would agree that, at the very least, the gaming concept of building your party and making strategic decisions regarding race and class combinations, and then taking into account enemy types, spells and such:

that this constitutes "RPG role playing", as you are using your character's skills, limitations, abilities, etc, in order to use the game's tools allowed to the player to advance your party and characters.

Yes, it is a limited form of role-playing, as it is relegated almost exclusively as to how your player decisions end up affecting mostly/only how the game's combat encounters are resolved (the conflict resolution aspects), but it definitely qualifies, IMO.

plus, you know, stuff like only a thief-type being able to properly find hidden passageways, or deal with traps and chests; yes, it by now in our modern standards very much "primitive" to the point of becoming i dare say... banal, but i think it is very hard to argue against an RPG focusing on rock-solid mechanics that, 30+ years later, are still being copied and in most cases yet to be improved upon.

(for example, wizardry's loot being tied exclusively to what floor is being explored and not tied to enemies or to enemy-types; this is a very simple, EXTREMLY simplistic way to entice the player to always want to continue exploring the dungeon ever further, and the mounting danger of party's depleting resources, i.e. hit points, spells, etc, while again being a basic form of resource management still, to this day, prove to be tried and true way to evoke psychological "immersion" or, rather, suspension of disbelief, as the player begins to worry about their party possibly not making it alive back to town because they DECIDED to continue down the dungeon out of bravado).

you know what I most wish?

a game that has all that fucking shit I just word-vomited, but ALSO has NPCs with well-written and meaningful dialog, and at least a few dialog trees, and even branching content that doesn't boil down to the insulting type of R. L. Stein-type choose-your-own-fate books from the 80s/90s; where there are choices to be made but they end up insipid scenarios such as, "oh, you went to page 10 and ate a brownie and shat your butthole to death. turn back to page 8 to continue the story!".

Example of that sort of thing: none of other than good ole PoE. And Tyranny too, but as mediocre as Tyranny is at least it features decisions that actually change complete maps/areas.

For PoE 2 I hope Sawyer, (because we all know he makes these games by himself due to massive ego), that he concentrates less on the type of C and C which simply changes one area where you liberate some children or whatever instead of the other possible area which is... the same map with adults joining you in the fight to save the little tykes... or whatever.

That type of C and C is, IMO, p. much completely meaningless as there is no legitimate reason to split the content in my example into 2 mutually exclusive scenarios as both always lead to the same type of result: some sort of reward for the player.

We all know it is simply way too expensive for a studio like Sawyer's studio to actually goa head and take my (dumb) example above and extrapolate all of the possible ramifications, like maybe the kids you save growing up evil and then forming a band of lord of the flies-type gang of children who murder their parents for reasons (which SAwyer will know!) and then it turns out saving them forces the party to make, etc, etc, etc.

i got tired of typing.

tl;dr: I hope PoE 2 is good, because I legit liked PoE 1, even though I have never bothered reading a single dialog from any NPC in the game in all of my 3 playthroughs. :D

EDIT: btw, sawyer's 3 picks you mentioned are legit... but I think Fallout New Vegas is a better game/RPG than those 3 games combined. And yes, come at me, I am ready to argue this for the following 50 pages. I find it extremely odd he didn't pick FNV as one of his fave rpgs, since if there's one thing about sawyer it's that he humble hs is not. He has plenty to be proud of with FNV.
 
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aweigh

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i'll brb, i need to take my xanax. I literally cannot stop typing. Yes, I know i shouldn't type this, but... i wouldn't be a good codexer if my brain wasn't broke! <3
 

Invictus

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Excuseeee meeee
So now Fallout New Vegas is better than Pools of Radiance, Fallout AND Darklands combined?
Yeah go easy on the drugs boy, your brain is about to come out of your ears
And Icewind Dale 2 is arguably better than 1 for the simple fact that ot used the 3.0 version of the game and for a game mostly based on combat that is a huge difference
 

vortex

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Fair enough. I do think many here would agree that, at the very least, the gaming concept of building your party and making strategic decisions regarding race and class combinations, and then taking into account enemy types, spells and such:

aweigh,to sum up, you want PoE2 answer these questions:

What does one race matter ?
What does one class matter ?
What does one party matter ?
What does one choice matter ?
 
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FeelTheRads

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I'd argue that he saved the project

Yeah, sure, he saves everything he touches. :roll:

What do you believe he did wrong that someone else would have done right?

I don't know if it's his fault, really, I was trolling, but the game itself is the most boring and unfun of all the IE games, so I figure it must have been him.

He's not dismissing Wizardry-likes, he's just saying things that were once called role playing games that don't have what he considers role playing are not role playing games.

Actually he said that RPGs are what the mass market calls RPGs. Which just shows how his design was and will always be influenced by the lowest common denominator. And also that he's clueless.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
The new one is obviously a Rauatai. Kana is usually a lot more cheerful and less martially-inclined than the quote though; sounds more like an admiral or warrior than a scholar. A new companion from there perhaps?
 

Invictus

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Fucking Sawyer, that is exactly the sort of hipster bullshit "oh those are not RPGs" that makes me dislike thr guy and his "vision"
Wizardry 7 is a better game that he would ever dream of making and blobbers are what created the medium in computer form ffs
That is exactly why modern developers produce the shit that they do, they have no knowledge nor regard for classics that paved the way for the medium... for all we know the fucker might not even like Darklands but he picked it as a trendy hipster choice
 
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Lurker King

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That is exactly why modern developers produce the shit that they do, they have no knowledge nor regard for classics that paved the way for the medium... for all we know the fucker might not even like Darklands but he picked it as a trendy hipster choice

I don’t think the real problem is just the lack of knowledge per se, in the sense that someone doesn't know what the game features are. Someone could be forced to play these games and still think they suck. I think the real problem lies in player’s arbitrary preferences. If someone doesn’t like to think, read or try different builds in order to master a system, chances are they will find a challenging cRPG boring. In other words, some people can enjoy easier cRPGs because they have nice writing or exploration, but still hate solid cRPGs because your survival depends on mastering character building, resource management, etc. If a person is too lazy, incompetent or arrogant to master these kind of abstract systems, they will never see any fun in it.
 
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Roguey

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Wizardry 7 is a better game that he would ever dream of making and blobbers are what created the medium in computer form ffs

Wizardry 7 has role playing, so Josh would consider it a role playing game.
 

Invictus

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That is exactly why modern developers produce the shit that they do, they have no knowledge nor regard for classics that paved the way for the medium... for all we know the fucker might not even like Darklands but he picked it as a trendy hipster choice

I don’t think the real problem is just the lack of knowledge per se, in the sense that someone doesn't know what the game features are. Someone could be forced to play these games and still think they suck. I think the real problem lies in player’s arbitrary preferences. If someone doesn’t like to think, read or try different builds in order to master a system, chances are they will find a challenging cRPG boring. In other worlds, some people can enjoy easier cRPGs because they have nice writing or exploration, but still hate solid cRPGs because your survival depends on mastering character building, resource management, etc. If a person is too lazy, incompetent or arrogant to master these kind of abstract systems, they will never see any fun in it.
If anything we have seen the last few years is that there are players old and new who want challenges and difficult games, hell Dark Souls bases it whole premise for beign hard and that has sold pretty well.
Could anybody believe that Age of Decandence would find a market besides us Codex & Watch gamers and sell almost 100k copies? An old school Dungeon Siegue looking 10 year in development game? Hell not even VD could have dreamed of it... remember how he just needed 30,000 sales to stay in business and develop the next game?
This speaks very badly anout Sawyer overall, maybe he doesn't do complicated because he thinks the audience for his games might be too dumb to do play them?
He always tries to come across as the anti nerd, all tatooed and taking about the politics of the Roman empire whike drinking his jazmin tea with soya milk while he KNOW he would sell his soul to be in Todd Howard's shoes
Fucking phony
For all his eccentricities Mr Blakemore at least is original in his adamatium bone and homoerotic glory
Sawyer is just another hipster faggot who thinks he is going to show the workd how it is done
Fuck it Obsidian wont see another cent from me for any of his shit, I will just pirate it like everybody else
 
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Lurker King

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That challenging games can sell in other genres is trivial - I consider Dark Souls an arcade game, not a cRPG. The best plataformers, strategy games, etc., are challenging. The real question is whether challenging cRPGs can sell at all. You think that 100k copies is an impressive number, but for studios like Obsidian, 100k is pocket change. They can’t maintain their huge payrolls with this number. The truth is that even if Sawyer had the perfect understanding of what makes a good cRPG, he would still need to compromise his vision in order to reach a larger audience. The time in which medium studios released games like FO are long gone. The best thing we have now are a few talented indies. If they can’t keep on business, you better look for strategy games, or old games. It is either that or Obsidian games.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Most RPG fans suck at playing them. People who are genuinely good at games and genuinely want challenges gravitate towards RTS, 4x, simulation, or twitch of any flavour. Or various competitive multiplayer shit ofc.

This is true of Codexians too, just look at the list of Codex favourites. Most of 'em are piss easy, and most of the ones that aren't become so once you've discovered a couple of trivial exploits.
 

Invictus

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So to you guys a game with deep tactical combat or without awesome buttons cannot be easy for the average gamer? Or even fun?
I used the example of Age of Decandence because on paper that is exactly the kind of game you are describing; a text heavy, deep combat, no hand holding game with graphics from a 10 year old game, no fancy Cinematics or voiceovers which against all odds sells what might be chinken fee to a big boy studio but is enough to fund their next 5 years of development for their new projects
That sort of "gamers are lazy and dumb" is what turned Fallout into Fallout 4
Hell even systems like Divinity Original Sin where you need to use various elemental effect like casting a fireball at a pool of poison to evaporate it are very simple if taught properly and sold fucking well too
Sawyer and his fucking cool game designer dude rutine is a sham
And people dump games because they grow tired of the trash mobs or the game ultimately failed to be entertaining or they got another game in the Steam sale sd they simply lost interest
 
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Lurker King

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Most RPG fans suck at playing them. This is true of Codexians too, just look at the list of Codex favourites. Most of 'em are piss easy, and most of the ones that aren't become so once you've discovered a couple of trivial exploits.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I got the impression that the Codex was funded by storyfags, whose favorite games are easy. Whether this reflects the genre or not it’s open to debate. What I'm noticing now I'm learning is that past cRPGs were much more demanding. Games like RoA2 and Darklands throw tons of information at you and make you die for the silliest mistakes. They are harder than most games nowadays, believe me. If you grow up playing these games, you need to be good at gaming. There is no way around it. AoD is the same. Either you master the combat system and get good, or you die. If you try to fight your way through AoD like in FO or BG you will be crushed.
 

Invictus

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Darklands is not a hard game per se or even a complicated one, it just requires you to have a strong sense of its systems, understanding it and then applying them. If you dont want to have a high level artificer for example you can make do with eater water for locks which you can make yourself or buy from the local alquemists
The combat is simplistic but fun, the narrative is surprisingly light and it open world structure let you grow at your own pace and even get creative like making new members to substitute your older characters.
It is ultimately a game that requires patience and diligence but in no way is is comblicated, hard or anything remotely not fun

That is why I question Sawyer's supposed love for the game, that allows you to mini max a lot but also offers clear better options for its clases and systems without his sacred "balance"
For example moving to Nuremberg straight away to start the game is a very good choice for making local rep and buying top quality materials, buying short swords and maces for everybody to start off is very efficient but getting a military hammer is even more effective if you rather not micromanage every combat encounter
Frankly I saw nothing of that from him in his playthoughs he doesnt seem like a veteran of the gane as he claims
 
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Jaesun

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Darklands is not a hard game per se or even a complicated one, it just requires you to have a strong sense of its systems, understanding it and then applying them. If you dont want to have a high level artificer for example you can make do with eater water for locks which you can make yourself or buy from the local alquemists
The combat is simplistic but fun, the narrative is surprisingly light and it open world structure let you grow at your own pace and even get creative like making new members to substitute your older characters.
It is ultimately a game that requires patience and diligence but in no way is is comblicated, hard or anything remotely not fun

That is why I question Sawyer's supposed love for the game, that allows you to mini max a lot but also offers clear better options for its clases and systems without his sacred "balance"
For example moving to Nuremberg straight away to start the game is a very good choice for making local rep and buying top quality materials, buying short swords and maces for everybody to start off is very efficient but getting a military hammer is even more effective if you rather not micromanage every combat encounter
Frankly I saw nothing of that from him in his playthoughs he doesnt seem like a veteran of the gane as he claims

Is there some specific way he is supposed to play the game he enjoys?
 

Rivmusique

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Darklands is not a hard game per se or even a complicated one, it just requires you to have a strong sense of its systems, understanding it and then applying them. If you dont want to have a high level artificer for example you can make do with eater water for locks which you can make yourself or buy from the local alquemists
The combat is simplistic but fun, the narrative is surprisingly light and it open world structure let you grow at your own pace and even get creative like making new members to substitute your older characters.
It is ultimately a game that requires patience and diligence but in no way is is comblicated, hard or anything remotely not fun

That is why I question Sawyer's supposed love for the game, that allows you to mini max a lot but also offers clear better options for its clases and systems without his sacred "balance"
For example moving to Nuremberg straight away to start the game is a very good choice for making local rep and buying top quality materials, buying short swords and maces for everybody to start off is very efficient but getting a military hammer is even more effective if you rather not micromanage every combat encounter
Frankly I saw nothing of that from him in his playthoughs he doesnt seem like a veteran of the gane as he claims

Is there some specific way he is supposed to play the game he enjoys?

Yes:

Not at all. Instead, play the latest "hit" and tell everyone how much you regret buying it.
 

Quillon

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That is why I question Sawyer's supposed love for the game

Don't know about Darklands, I'm too young for that shit but Josh seems to be interested in it mostly from his historyfagness then open world design more than its combat related systems other than it being classless. IIRC he was also making controversial changes to Fallout's systems for the original F3 despite it being one of his other fav games.
 

Invictus

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What I was trying to say is that Invictus is missing the point entirely of WHY this is such a good game.
Really?
Why dont you enlighten me Jaesun on exactly why my favorite game is my favorite game?
And to answer your question you kind of have to be, well I dont know....good at your fucking favorite game?
"Oh yeah I love Dark Souls it is the best game evah" when you cant even get out of the Undead Burg
Sawyer seemed as hesitant and as inexperienced as when he played Arcanum
Why doesn't he understand the system enough to play the game properly
If I wanted to show up my Darklands baddasey in a youtube video I would show how to make the perfect starter healer build who can heal 3 points right at the start, or maybe show off my vast knowledge of the combat system by showcasing the damage/speed/penetration ratio of the militaty hammer
Or showcase my knowledge of the various saints where you absolutely need St Polycarp for fighting Dragons?
He always looks fucking bored even Todd feels enthusiastic and fun compred to that hipster wannabe
Been replaying Pillars lately and I can honestly say I enjoy it and you better belive I know how to play the fucking thing and yes even exploit its sytems to make it platly like I want to despite all the "balancing" that fucker tried to shoehorn the game with
 
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Lurker King

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I don’t understand the way you think, Invictus. You hate Sawyer’s design beliefs and are here for Grimoire, but yet you enjoy PoE. How come? The character building and itemization is bland. The encounter design is awful. We know the game was rushed. The only thing good about it are the graphics, which are great. But if we are going down that road, you could just as well be playing Skyrim. It makes no difference. Player’s indulgent attitude towards these games is the reason why they end up as classics in the top list and create a future generation of ignorants. You are literally lowering your standards in order to have some new to play, but then complain that you don’t have good games, this or that. Either you stick up to your standards and be coherent, or you stop the pretense of caring about game design at all.
 

FeelTheRads

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Wizardry 7 is a better game that he would ever dream of making and blobbers are what created the medium in computer form ffs

Wizardry 7 has role playing, so Josh would consider it a role playing game.

Oh really? Since I can safely assume you never even got close to this game, I'm curious what did you google to get to the conclusion that it has enough roleplaying to satisfy Sawyer.

You know, all these clueless "woulds" are getting really old, at some point it would be nice if you actually had anything to backup your trolling besides google searches.

And stop lying. He clearly said RPGs are defined by what the mass market says. We're not talking about whatever the fuck he thinks, if he can think above mass market at all.

Edit: Yes, Infinitron, you disagree with a post that has nothing really to agree or disagree with. Instead of being a cuck, if you don't like what I said, go with the :retadred: rating like a real man. Sorry if I offended the god of boring games and shit systems again.
 
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