Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Eternity Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Pre-Release Thread [BETA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I don't think Josh would have time to be a good project director if he had to do the area designers' jobs in addition to system design and creating the setting.
 

Projas

Information Superhighwayman
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2016
Messages
1,202
Location
Best Republic
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
because xp isn't the only thing you could be missing out on.

You could, but I think in practice the game was pretty good about never putting anything really important in or near an avoidable battle (not including cul-de-sac "treasure room"-type areas of course)
Yes, that's true, I took a lot of these alternative routes in my second playthrough and didn't feel I was missing out. Thing is though, you wouldn't necessarily know this on your first playthrough. I feel like thinking if something can be bypassed, then it probably doesn't have anything important in it is quite an assumption to make when you haven't played the game before.

*sneaks in, then doubles back to kill everyone to maximize xp gains*
You could prevent that if you really wanted to. By for example only awarding xp for killing hostiles.
 

Sherry

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
404
Location
Shrine of Compassion
Care to name a few?

Hi.

Here are a few I have encountered during my game.

1) The very first encounters you will be able to avoid combat is by using the skills of your protagonist, when arriving in the town of Gilded Vale. Aloth is outside having gotten himself into an argument with a number of no-good folk who wish to give him two black eyes! With the proper dialog choices and ranks in Perception, you can avoid combat with a bluff.

2) In the Temple of Woedica, you can have your protagonist wear the shrouded cultist clothing that you find previously. Wearing the hood hides your true identity and allows you to enter the chamber beyond without the need for combat.

3) When I was looking for an egg near Dyrford Crossing, I was able to talk my way out of combat with the group of adventurers which arrived before me. I was able to scare a number of them off and pay off the remainder to avoid combat and get the egg I was looking for.

4) During my trek toward Twin Elms did I encounter a number of knights in Stormwall Gorge. While in conversation, I was able to intimidate the group and then spare them. This allowed me to continue into the gorge without bloodshed.

Those are some of the ones I remember.

Thanks,
Randal
 

Projas

Information Superhighwayman
Patron
Joined
Aug 5, 2016
Messages
1,202
Location
Best Republic
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
When I was looking for an egg near Dyrford Crossing, I was able to talk my way out of combat with the group of adventurers which arrived before me. I was able to scare a number of them off and pay off the remainder to avoid combat and get the egg I was looking for.
One of those guys had pretty sweet stag helmet, so that's actually an example of how you can miss things.
 

Sherry

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Messages
404
Location
Shrine of Compassion
When I was looking for an egg near Dyrford Crossing, I was able to talk my way out of combat with the group of adventurers which arrived before me. I was able to scare a number of them off and pay off the remainder to avoid combat and get the egg I was looking for.
One of those guys had pretty sweet stag helmet, so that's actually an example of how you can miss things.

Hi.

Yeah. That's very much one of my peeves with POE. The design mechanics are there, but the rewards are skewed. Whereas you received a helmet for engaging in bloodshed, I feel the reward for using conversation skills and wit, should be more of an experience reward.

I'm not sure what the balance is in this particular encounter. You kill everyone, get a stag helmet and perhaps end up with a few other items and a total of 216xp (just an example).

Whereas my own party that avoided the combat missed out on all the items. In this instance, one should receive more than 216xp worth of experience for avoiding combat completely. My memory is a little wispy, and I can't recall if one of the party members that I intimidated dropped an item or not.

But I think this is one area they could improve on in the sequel.

Thanks,
Randal
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I don't see why everything should be rewarded equally. If you murder and rob someone a logical outcome is that you get to walk off with their stuff; if you don't, you won't.
 

Sizzle

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Messages
2,471
I don't see why everything should be rewarded equally. If you murder and rob someone a logical outcome is that you get to walk off with their stuff; if you don't, you won't.

Actually, that quest (the dragon egg one) is a pretty good example of a relatively well thought out award in either case - if you decide to fight, you get more loot. If you decide to intimidate a few of those adventurers and make them leave, you get an easier combat encounter.

Is it an equal award? Well, no, but it's a logical, and, more importantly, role playing one.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
You get enough xp for that to be negligible, sooo loot it is. I suppose it's a trade-off, since if they dropped their loot when intimidated it would be the clearly superior choice. Not that I mind having superior choices when they are tied to stats. The reward system is finicky to get right.
 

AN4RCHID

Arcane
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
4,729
I don't get why trash mobs would be more fun to fight if they gave xp. The mechanics of the fight don't change. The game has a level cap you can reach pretty easily anyway, so combat xp and no combat xp end with the player in the same place. The only real argument in favour of combat xp is the primal lizard brain pleasure at seeing numbers go up a la cookie clicker.
That's not even a good argument if you were right. Plenty of what is good in art could be reduced to primal lizard brain pleasure circuits. Aesthetically pleasing color schemes, predictable rhythyms and consonant tones for example. It isn't good design to pretend those things don't exist. But, you're not right. Having XP rewards for fights gives combat victory a systemic value so there is some positive reason to engage in combat. I predicted before the game came out that combat would feel like a slog because there's no point to engaging in it beyond necessity, and that is how it feels. And the game is designed that way; enemy encounters are mostly just there to be speed bumps between point A and point B. If the XP system was different then the enemy placement would have had to be different, it wouldn't be the same thing plus pavlovian rewards (although even that would have been a little bit more enjoyable). It would actually free designers up to make combat skippable, because it wouldn't be inherently just a waste of time and resources that any right-thinking person would skip given the chance.

Hand placed XP is fine if there are low numbers of encounters and combat is generally avoidable, but it was always clear despite Sawyer's claims that PoE was not going to be that type of game.
 
Last edited:

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
Plenty of what is good in art could be reduced to primal lizard brain pleasure circuits. Aesthetically pleasing color schemes, predictable rhythms and consonant tones for example..

This is actually an interesting thing to bring up. The equal temperament in Western music was primarily done through what the ear naturally hears as pleasing, because no amount of theorizing was enough to construct that system without that. We've moved past the equal temperament by now, but it shows how art was built-up on natural instincts, I'm sure other mediums have similar backgrounds - the color contrast wheel wasn't made up randomly for example, nor the asymmetrical groupings of three (if you have 3 objects, with 2 being the same, it's more aesthetically pleasing for the unique one to be on either side, instead of in the center), which is also a primal reaction and not a rationalized conclusion. Art has stopped being beautiful altogether for a very long time (which isn't bad, it's just not its focus to be beautiful anymore), so these points are kinda moot.

I don't think combat xp is related to this phenomenon however, there is no artistic process here, it's more related to the treadmill psychology that bad MMOs derive their addiction potential from. Or maybe it provides a concrete, rationalized value to combat, because "fun" is unquantifiable. Maybe a mix of both, maybe something else entirely, but, like you said, I think it depends on the overall design of the game. If it constantly throws trash fight after trash fight at you, it starts feeling like you are on that treadmill but there is no tangible benefit, only a waste of time. This is also why easy games are a sin. At least you get to sweat a little on an actual treadmill (working out is important, kids, don't skimp out on it). So, yeah, at the end of the day I think it's related to the overall design, with difficulty playing a big role as well.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,810
my favorite moment in PoE:
- finding god of random in random ass loot place in middle of nowhere. That was brilliant.
 

Rivmusique

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
3,489
Location
Kangarooland
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
my favorite moment in PoE:
- finding god of random in random ass loot place in middle of nowhere. That was brilliant.

Can top:

Mct6VgG.gif

PoE2 end boss is going to be very easy.
 

Artyoan

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Messages
635
I slaughter (almost) everything for potential loot moreso than experience. Could be a hidden item in the area or a drop. It's unknown, and I want the unknown to be known.

Any time I see an obvious shortcut I never take it because it means I'll have left something unexplored. I always take the 'wrong' path in any area just because I know it doesn't lead to the end. I can, and have, missed lots of things, but it won't be due to just simply bypassing an area knowingly.

Lots of itches to be scratched. Might as well be extremely thorough.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
I slaughter (almost) everything for potential loot moreso than experience. Could be a hidden item in the area or a drop. It's unknown, and I want the unknown to be known.

Any time I see an obvious shortcut I never take it because it means I'll have left something unexplored. I always take the 'wrong' path in any area just because I know it doesn't lead to the end. I can, and have, missed lots of things, but it won't be due to just simply bypassing an area knowingly.

Lots of itches to be scratched. Might as well be extremely thorough.

I often play in a similar way. I was talking about this in the last video I recorded. I often don't like to skip certain encounters, and even go as far to not wanting to use spells of Fear, Flee, Panic/Terror, and things like this when available. If the enemies run off it usually means you're missing out on XP, loot, gold or some other resources. If you let some cursed undead king live you assume you are missing out on whatever cursed legendary claymore he was using.

I think going forward it would be cool to see better rewards for doing these things. Not every encounter needs to equal some legendary treasure, but it would be cool if you Panic the enemy or something, they drop gold on their way out or something. Or you get XP for winning the encounter in the way you did, not just for physically killing the enemy. Haven't thought it through much but it is an interesting thing that I've noticed from my own playing of RPGs.
 

Efe

Erudite
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,597
Why should he drop more gold/xp when he runs away vs when you cut him down?
that would make his play style worse.. now he has to check for peaceful solution rewards on top of violent ones.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
Why should he drop more gold/xp when he runs away vs when you cut him down?
that would make his play style worse.. now he has to check for peaceful solution rewards on top of violent ones.

I didn't say drop MORE gold . Maybe it could be 25% of what the group would have dropped had you killed them all. That was a very quick off the head example just to give an idea of what they could do. In other words, somehow reward the group in some way for making the enemy run away. Not in a way that makes you want to check every one for a peaceful solution, but if a peaceful solution is in your interest at the time then some sort of reward would make it more worthwhile.
 

Xeon

Augur
Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Messages
1,858
Probably only time I see acceptable to get similar money or item is when you manage to intimidate or trick the enemy to give you an item and run or leave, other than that kinda doesn't make sense.

Not sure what game it was but I remember a game that if you didn't get an item from one person, you get the item later when you complete the quest from the other party if that makes sense. That feels a little cheesy but hey.
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
9,934
Probably only time I see acceptable to get similar money or item is when you manage to intimidate or trick the enemy to give you an item and run or leave, other than that kinda doesn't make sense.

Not sure what game it was but I remember a game that if you didn't get an item from one person, you get the item later when you complete the quest from the other party if that makes sense. That feels a little cheesy but hey.
Isn't that more to the limitations of the designer, I mean you could run someone off while they are busy packing up all their loot from exploring a tomb/dungeon, ambush a party as they camp forcing them to leave behind most of their fancy loot (I mean D&D was kind of designed with this in mind as putting on armor actually took quite a bit of time and you couldn't sleep in it), you could route a war party leaving their supply train behind, et cetera. But yeah it would be nice if you could perform highway robbery on that band of highway robbers especially in the case of no kill xp PoE encounters.

Plus if you make permanent injuries fairly common you would incentivize scattering enemies over the standard genocide everything approach most rpgs have. Granted the most ideal form would be different outcomes/consequences (further encounters/opening different quests, et cetera) to who you spared versus killed.

All that said, some people in RPGs carry far too much coins to the point you would expect them to shed money like a pinata when struck; better to have a good gem economy in game or some other valuable commodity.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
Just a quick thought, but some older RPGs had your party lose money if you escaped battle. "In the rush to flee you dropped 10 gold coins.". I'm sure developers could come up with some sort of system to incentivize making enemies flee in some way that would actually make using spells and methods that make enemies run away more useful in some way.
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
9,934
Just a quick thought, but some older RPGs had your party lose money if you escaped battle. "In the rush to flee you dropped 10 gold coins.". I'm sure developers could come up with some sort of system to incentivize making enemies flee in some way that would actually make using spells and methods that make enemies run away more useful in some way.
Make the amount of gold you can carry limited by the number of purses you have and have a chance to lose a purse in combat for every purse carried allowing you to recover them on a victory of course. Make this apply to enemy parties and you have a means by which to give partial monetary awards to fleeing enemies.
Although, you would need some fierce enemies and replaceable party members to make some risk versus reward scenario where you might be willing to spend a party member's life in exchange for :keepmymoney:. Granted this has two major drawbacks: casual tards complaining about difficulty (see AoD reviews) and requires the game have a balanced economy and something really worthwhile to spend your filthy lucre on.
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
I think developers have learned that players absolutely hate losing stuff. It's not worth the shitstorm they are subjected to after release. It's interesting as a concept. but for most players, it simply sucks. It usually ends up in a reload anyway.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom