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What old (pre-1995) cRPGs stand the test of time?

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
8,089
In general old games give me something newer games don't. It took me a while to realize, but old games tickle my imagination in a way a fancy AAA modern rpg cannot. Reading about the stuff that is there in this corner of the dungeon, the detailed description of what I see while actually just staring at a generic dungeon wall is so much more atmospheric than even a really beautiful game like Witcher 3. Sure, UIs are often badly designed, sometimes games have weird saving systems etc, but it's all worth it for this feeling of adventure.

Another thing is how silence played into the enjoyment and atmosphere building of many games back then. Today no silence is allowed. I think that's also part of the reason why Thief1&2 are so good.

The epitome of it is in Starflight for Sega where silence and isolated sound effects are terrifying as a kid (and still unsettling) and quickly make you wish for some sort of music to keep you company.
 

Fowyr

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
7,671
If someone were to tell me they think Nahlakh is perfectly fine as it is, I would call them liars. If they were honest, then I supposed they are the kind of people who eat their meat raw.
Yes, it's perfectly fine. Graphics is passable and controls are fine.
It could be slightly improved, but only slightly.

Nahlakh is from 1994 (or something), though. I understand it is a "fan"-made game, but that doesn't mean I should be okay with it looking like a ten year od game.
It was fully made by one man. Also it was one of these "shareware" games that still carried the RPG torch in the First Age of CRPG Decline.
Others were Exile, Aethra Chronicles and Aleshar.

I don't play cRPGs for the tactical combat, especially not when it is boring. Wasteland 2 wasn't exactly "tactical", but it was fun nonetheless.
But Nahlakh has tremendously fun combat.
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,352
Location
Crait
I resent that criticism of ToEE's encounter design. Fighting 5 bugbears, 10 bugbears, 20 bugbears, 30 bugbears, 40 bugbears and 50 bugbears are vastly different experiences.

"Well, what's in the next room?"

"It's another room full of bugbears."

"Well, how many bugbears?"

"Twenty-three."

"... crap."
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
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Messages
8,352
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Crait
If you want some more classic gaming content but with more modern UIs, you might need to look outside of the strict RPG genre and play some games in related genres like strategy games or adventure games. Some are true classics that any gamer should play (like Gabriel Knight: SotF) and others are controversial even still (like Defender of the Crown).

Adventure games:
Neuromancer
Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Father
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis
Laura Bow in: the Dagger of Amon Ra
Sam & Max Hit the Road
The Last Express (1997)
(Bloodnet is basically an adventure game and worse than the ones listed here)
if you like these then the other greats in this genre like Cosmology of Kyoto, Maniac Mansion, Loom, Myst, Monkey Island, LSL, Beneath a Steel Sky, 7th Guest, Grim Fandango, etc...
Colossal Cave Adventure, after all, is the patriarch of both adventure games and rpgs.

Strategy games:
Archon (probably a remake)
M.U.L.E.
Reach for the Stars
Balance of Power
Genghis Khan (KOEI)
Fantasy General
Alpha Centauri
Master of Orion 2
Star Wars: Rebellion

UPDATE: Alpha Centauri came out in 1999, the same year as HoMM3? Comparing the production values, that seems unbelievable.

Hybrid games:
Sid Meier's Pirates (but play the remake from 10 years ago)
Defender of the Crown
Lords of the Rising Sun
Castles 2
Wing Commander series

Oh, also check out Decker, which is a Shadowrun RPG that people always forget.
 
Last edited:

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
i prefer keyboard only controls over point and click style UI.

After figuring out that I control Elminage Gothic much better with just a keyboard and no mouse, I agree.
 

Jarpie

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
6,610
Codex 2012 MCA
In general old games give me something newer games don't. It took me a while to realize, but old games tickle my imagination in a way a fancy AAA modern rpg cannot. Reading about the stuff that is there in this corner of the dungeon, the detailed description of what I see while actually just staring at a generic dungeon wall is so much more atmospheric than even a really beautiful game like Witcher 3. Sure, UIs are often badly designed, sometimes games have weird saving systems etc, but it's all worth it for this feeling of adventure.

Another thing is how silence played into the enjoyment and atmosphere building of many games back then. Today no silence is allowed. I think that's also part of the reason why Thief1&2 are so good.

The epitome of it is in Starflight for Sega where silence and isolated sound effects are terrifying as a kid (and still unsettling) and quickly make you wish for some sort of music to keep you company.

The usage of sound in Dungeon Master/CSB is fucking great, at least in amiga-version as you can hear if the monster is close or far.

From the 80s blobbers DM and CSB have imo aged well, the graphics are nice and the UI is quite modern.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
The usage of sound in Dungeon Master/CSB is fucking great, at least in amiga-version as you can hear if the monster is close or far.

That sounds cool. That seems like one of those often strange or unique ideas you find in the ancient RPGs that for some reason no one does today. An example I can quickly think of is the UI/HUD from Might & Magic III: Isles of Terra on SNES. I don't remember 100% how it works but I know the dragon at the top gives you some sort of info (perhaps if an enemy is nearby the dragon starts to roar?), and also other elements in the viewing area react differently to certain things (if a secret door is near, etc.). Cool stuff, IMO.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
11,909
I'm strongly against the whole "games don't age" reasoning. The thing is, some people are better at coping with the age. I can't cope with Wizardry's slow gameplay, clunky interface, lack of music and sounds. All those things were taken for granted back in the early 80s.
...
Let's face it, people: if games don't age, we have to accept that no activity really ages, and games were born for a reason: people were bored and wanted something else.
What aspects of games age? Your complaints are about graphics, user interface, and to a lesser extent sound, and the first two have been addressed repeatedly.

Graphics --- to be more precise, the technical aspects of graphics --- are very much of their time, and improvements in computing power and techniques have allowed for technically better graphics over time. However, as has already been pointed out, 2D graphics in general age far better than 3D graphics, which even if they looked acceptable at the time are quickly subject to becoming too polygonal and lacking in various other aspects (shading, shadows, higher-resolution textures, etc.) that were added or improved later. Even within 3D graphics, the 2.5D type has aged better than the fully 3D type, which is why Ultima Underworld's graphics are bearable and Daggerfall's graphics still look fairly good whereas most fully 3D RPGs from the 1990s and first half of the 2000s look horrible. For that matter, I thought that early 3D tended to look ugly even at the time, in RPGs and many other genres. If we take Wizardry as an example, I could understand someone finding the black-and-white wire-frame graphics of the original 1981 version too dated, but there are later ports of Wizardry with improved graphics, and even the NES version looks reasonable (and the Super Famicom version looks quite good). There's no excuse for dismissing a game because of graphics in the 16-bit era or later, and many of the earlier games like Wizardry have ports with better graphics, even sometimes on 8-bit machines like the Famicom/NES.

User interfaces, unlike graphics, are not of their time --- if a user interface is good when the game is released, it's good today, and likewise if bad. Certainly, there are any number of CRPGs from the 1980s with clunky UIs but the same is true of the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s. Overall, there was some amount of general incline in UIs (though not to the extent that should have occurred), but that was followed by a general decline. As I'm fond of pointing out, Dungeon Master in 1987 was not only extremely innovative in its UI but the vast majority of later CRPGs have UIs that are noticeably worse despite widespread copying from Dungeon Master. And a simple, menu-driven interface, though certainly not as elegant as the UIs found in Dungeon Master or Morrowind, is very far from being the worst kind of UI found in CRPGs.

Finally, if you want to have a musical accompaniment to these older games, you can always play music separately from the game. A good musical score can enhance a game, but most CRPGs, recent or otherwise, have music that is adequate at best. And music doesn't make sense for every kind of CRPG, for example those where you need to be able to listen carefully to sounds from the dungeon, from Dungeon Master to Dark Souls.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
I don't find the UI or graphics to ever be a reason I stop playing or can't play an RPG. A UI can be bad, yeah, but you can still adapt to it IMO if you have any shred of patience or interest in actually checking out the better aspects of the game.

I definitely did notice Skyrim's UI more after using the version of SkyUI that was used in Enderal. I literally said whoa, this is pretty bad. I wouldn't stop playing an RPG because of that, though, but that's just me.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
hell, i find wireframe graphics beautiful.



the OP is a fucking faggot of the highest order and every post he makes further cements how clueless he is about what makes an RPG an RPG.

i think the wireframe dungeon (and the music) in the embedded video has better graphics than something stupid like Witcher 3.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,246
Location
Ingrija
Meh. So here's the thing that gets me. When we discuss something like PoE or ToEE, it's pretty much universally agreed upon that - whether or not you like the combat - the same encounter copy and pasted 10 times is a big negative. But when talking about some older games, people are bringing up games where you keep running into the same encounter over and over again and don't even mention it as a drawback.

Because in older games, these encounters are over before you can blink. And in something like PoE and ToEE, you have to watch every dumb zombie hobble about, pick its nose and scratch its ass for half a hour in glorious, detailed slo-mo.
 

KILLER BEAR

Educated
Joined
Sep 2, 2016
Messages
133
hell, i find wireframe graphics beautiful.
Ahem... I guess... in an abstract way?
Wizardry%20I%20-%20Proving%20Ground%20of%20the%20Mad%20Overlord%20_1.png
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,246
Location
Ingrija
I'd rather read a book than watch a film. Perhaps beautiful in the sense that he can use his imagination without it being polluted by eye-watering crap like, to pick an example from thin air, D:OS.

If one needs wireframe to use imagination, he'd need to read blank paper instead of a book.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
1,494
Questron is fun. It initiated three other games in the serie with the same mechanics: Questron II/Legacy of the Ancients/Legend of Black Silver.
The last one is only available for the C64. Legacy is great but only in EGA on PC. Play Legacy of the Ancients on C64 if you don't mind emulation and swapping d64s, or Questron II on PC, it's in VGA. The four games follow more or less the same pattern.
I can guarantee you that you'll have a great time.

Play Dragon Wars, an outstanding Bard's Tale/Wasteland open world hybrid set in ancient Sumeria. Best graphics: Amiga and Apple II GS version, but if emulation and swapping disks bores you, go for the PC version. Don't forget to download the manual for the paragraphs.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,662
Wireframe dungeons were great for their time, completely unacceptable nowadays. I want to see where the hell I am. Otherwise, it feels like I'm wandering around the weirdest office ever made.

What aspects of games age? Your complaints are about graphics, user interface, and to a lesser extent sound, and the first two have been addressed repeatedly.

All of them age. Some become timeless (like proper music), but when the music consists of boops and beeps, they become tiresome and annoying. Even gameplay ages. What was fun 30 years ago may not even be bearable to some nowadays. And when I say they age, it is because we have grown up and we become used to better graphics, sound, music, interface, and so on.

2D vs 3D: I understand the premise and I agree, but I doesn't applies to everything. Compare this to this. Ultima's graphics, at the time, may have been incredible, even if I disagree. But they look ugly as sin nowadays (in my opinion), whereas Final Fantasy VI's are really pretty and pleasing.

On music and sound: the problem is slightly more complicated. When you lack proper sound design, a musical score is usually used to cover the holes. Morrowind is the best example I can think of. The music is repetitive as hell, but if you disable the music, you will find the world is devoid of almost any sound. I'm not about to say the sound and music design in old cRPGs was bad, but when I play an essentially mute game, it becomes really hard for me to enjoy it. And if a recent game were to do that (lack sound and music), it would trashed pretty badly, and with good reason. There's no reason in the world to have a mute game in 2017, unless it is some kind of experimental game where you play as a deaf person. (It would be cool, now that I think about it, a "Deafness" trait that removes all sounds and music from the game)

With this, I don't mean that everyone should feel the way I do about these older cRPGs. The problem is that, all of this together, alongside the fact that I find many of these games particularly boring and not really interesting, really puts the final nail in the coffin. I guess I'm much more of a "complex" games type of guy, and there just wasn't much complexity in the beginning that didn't revolve around combat (which is definitely not what I look for in cRPGs).

Play Dragon Wars, an outstanding Bard's Tale/Wasteland open world hybrid set in ancient Sumeria. Best graphics: Amiga and Apple II GS version, but if emulation and swapping disks bores you, go for the PC version. Don't forget to download the manual for the paragraphs.

Thanks! It's on my list.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
I don't have a problem with wireframe graphics, but at least go all the way with it. Coupled with those shitty wapanese sprites and awful UI and fonts it's just lol

Seriously, for all their great proficiency at pixel art, the Japanese are the worst graphic designers ever. I have never seen a Japanese game that didn't have vomitous UI graphics and fonts.
 

octavius

Arcane
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Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
19,226
Location
Bjørgvin
2D vs 3D: I understand the premise and I agree, but I doesn't applies to everything. Compare this to this. Ultima's graphics, at the time, may have been incredible, even if I disagree. But they look ugly as sin nowadays (in my opinion), whereas Final Fantasy VI's are really pretty and pleasing.

The FF graphics is so good that you can see that you are playing a party of toddlers. Personally I prefer the stick figure of Ultima.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,662
The FF graphics is so good that you can see that you are playing a party of toddlers. Personally I prefer the stick figure of Ultima.

I'd rather have the chibi designs over a stick figure I can't even see the eyes of, tbh fam.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2017
Messages
1,378
-Lands of Lore: The Throne of Chaos has aged reasonably well, I finished it again a couple of years ago. Think "The Eye of the Beholder 2" with better graphics, a better story, a musical score to match and some improvements to the formula, chiefly some motion effect that lets you perceive in which direction you are turning.

-Ultimas V-VIII & Underworld 1&2 are still great, especially VII (both parts), but I can't be arsed playing I-IV anymore.

-Heimdall 2 was pretty cool as an early action-RPG, but a bit of a pain to control if I remember correctly (I last played it back in '94 or '95). Graphics would look good even today.

And there's Wizardry VII, or course!
 

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