Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Darth Roxor]

I know you have a wall of text ready about how it was totally different, but this sounds an awful lot like a typical few hours of Sigil in PS:T.

Who knows!

I played PS:T so long ago that maybe I couldn't tell back then that it was also shit!

(nop, you're in fact dead wrong, but I can't be bothered replying with a wall of text atm)

 

[Infinitron]

Can't wait for the official codex review...

Can't wait for what Infintritnritnron will cook for us.

Given Prime Junta's current feelings about the game, it would be funny if the PoE story repeats itself and I end up getting accused of trying to stop a negative review in favor of another negative review

(But nah, it's not going to happen)

 

[Prime Junta]

I know you have a wall of text ready about how it was totally different, but this sounds an awful lot like a typical few hours of Sigil in PS:T.

The problem is, as Roxor points out, that the dialogue isn't good. It's bland and wordy, apart from those occasional tertiary characters. Pick a random line of companion dialogue from PS:T and you can immediately tell which companion said it. Do the same for T:ToN, and you'll have no idea, they sound the same.

There are two positive things about T:ToN that Roxor didn't mention though: most quests have multiple approaches and resolutions, and some of the CYOA Meres are pretty cool and fresh.

At this point it's clear that this is no PS:T spiritual successor, it's at best a tribute. I still have hopes for the Bloom but at this point I'm not sure if the positives are enough to make it worthwhile to endure the negatives (and in enduring, grow strong.)

 

[Irenaeus]

Pick a random line of companion dialogue from PS:T and you can immediately tell which companion said it. Do the same for T:ToN, and you'll have no idea, they sound the same.

I have only picked up 4 companions so far, but it would be hilariously easy to identify any one of them:

hilariously funny - Erritis
emo sadsack - Alistair
snarky you-go-girl - Calistige
gay lame shit - Fake Lando (Tybir)

 

[Prime Junta]

hilariously funny - Erritis
emo sadsack - Alistair
snarky you-go-girl - Calistige
gay lame shit - Fake Lando (Tybir)

You did get two of the names right, so I guess they must've made an impression.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Erritis is truly a great companion, one of the best ones in recent memory concerning crpg's.

 

[Shadenuat]

So, both Roxor and Junta aren't too positive about the game? Well, shit

 

[Urthor]

Blackie is definitely just hot garbage, don't disagree with fake Lando either, but Erritis and the 5th companion Irenaeus hasn't gotten to aren't bad at all.

TTON is a CYOA and that's pretty much it. It isn't Planescape where love it or hate it Infinity engine gameplay and superb writing were bolted together, it's just superb writing plus dialogue checks. And you best pretend that InExile didn't include any combat in the game.

It is what it is largely, when the dust has settled it'll probably be InEx's best game before Brian Fargo goes bust (again).

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

The Sorrow is some kind of horrific cosmic horror that really really wants to eat you. Except the Sorrow appears just once during the intro and doesn't appear ever again. Some really fucking extra critical threat this.

I remember that during one of the updates it was said Sorrow can get you during the game if you slog enough. If what you say is correct then it was axed and we have some more insight into sad Saunders departure

 

[Irenaeus]

Blackie is definitely just hot garbage, don't disagree with fake Lando either, but Erritis and the 5th companion Irenaeus hasn't gotten to aren't bad at all.

TTON is a CYOA and that's pretty much it. It isn't Planescape where love it or hate it Infinity engine gameplay and superb writing were bolted together, it's just superb writing plus dialogue checks and you best pretend that InExile didn't include any combat in the game.

It is what it is largely, when the dust has settled it'll probably be InEx's best game before Brian Fargo goes bust (again).

There are brilliant parts and overall I think it's good for oddball sci fantasy, but it's very uneven. Agree that the less said (and experienced) about the combat, the better.

I'm hoping BT4 is their best game

 

[Infinitron]

The Sorrow is some kind of horrific cosmic horror that really really wants to eat you. Except the Sorrow appears just once during the intro and doesn't appear ever again. Some really fucking extra critical threat this.

I remember that during one of the updates it was said Sorrow can get you during the game if you slog enough. If what you say is correct then it was axed and we have some more insight into sad Saunders departure

You should be careful saying things like that. "Kevin Saunders got fired because he didn't want to dumb down the game" is the kind of thing lots of Codexers would like to believe but that is unlikely to be true.

Most of the things Codexers won't like about this game were probably set in stone during ksaun's three years of involvement with the game. The graphics style (more generic-looking characters), the adventure game-like nature of it, he spoke about all of these things. The decision not to make the castoffs' existence a secret in the setting was made under his watch.

 

[Irenaeus]

The Sorrow is some kind of horrific cosmic horror that really really wants to eat you. Except the Sorrow appears just once during the intro and doesn't appear ever again. Some really fucking extra critical threat this.

I remember that during one of the updates it was said Sorrow can get you during the game if you slog enough. If what you say is correct then it was axed and we have some more insight into sad Saunders departure

Game sent me some crypted messages that I shouldn't sleep around or I'd get fucked, but I've only needed to sleep once.

 

[Irenaeus]

The graphics, the adventure game-like nature of it, he spoke about all of these things.

Graphics are great imo, I don't mind playing an adventure either. Not at all.

 

[Urthor]

Bard's Tale 4 looks like a ridiculously cheap UE4 game that's going to be a hot mess when it's pushed out the door, is a cheapass UE4 game that will be a hot mess when it's pushed out the door, and is going to be a galactic sized disappointment to the Fargo dickriders on the InEx forums.

Kevin Saunders didn't make the biggest mistake in this game. George Ziets is the one who endorsed the Numenera ruleset to help out a buddy, and subsequently we've seen that the ruleset is absolute fucking trash when taken off the tabletop, even though IMO it's a pretty decent tabletop rule set that's easy af for a group to pickup and I like it a lot.

Pretty much all the failings descend from that. The crisis design and what have you which was Saunders' babe iirc isn't that big of a deal in the scheme of things.

 

[Kem0sabe]

All the interactions with the sorrow, or it's minions, are scripted in the beta. You can die and meditate as much as you want and nothing happens.

In regards to the writing, they clearly went with quantity instead of quality... If they trimmed down the text by half or more, I think the game would be much better for it.

Unlike PST, I don't think this game will be remembered as being a classic or a must play for fans, much like PoE, it comes off as being a cheap homage without any of the passion of the original developers put into it, it's feels soulless.

 

[Lurker King]

Bard's Tale 4 looks like ridiculously cheap UE4 game that's going to be a hot mess when it's pushed out the door, is a cheapass UE4 game that will be a hot mess when it's pushed out the door, and is going to be a galactic sized disappointment to the Fargo dickriders on the InEx forums.

And Roxor complaining about “Dungeon Rats” being false advertised as a dungeon crawler! Just wait until this pile of dung is released. It will be a complete popamole game with sandbox features. LOL The butthurt will be glorious. I’m calling again.

 

[veevoir]

You find said castoff, and she tells you to go find a castoff in a whole CITY of castoffs, and maybe HE can fix your macguffin for you! Meanwhile, while running around between zones, you will notice that suspiciously much going on in the world, the city, everything, has castoffs behind it. Castoffs are hiding behind every corner and in every memory, they are legion, and they are responsible for EVERYTHING. Every moment in the history of the city? It was castoffs! People in the city going crazy? It was castoffs! Strange machinery? Castoffs! Slavers? Castoffs! Cults and scholars? Castoffs! Castoffs, castoffs, castoffs, more like fuck offs! Castoffs being the sole answer to every single problem in this fucking game is not only absurd, it's also fucking idiotic. Each time something happens, you know there is AT LEAST one castoff behind it.

It's like reading GD on politics. Is castoff a replacement term for jews?

 

[vortex]

The beta does not have full environments and quests enabled, right?
So, maybe there will be more fights, quests and interactions in full release in first act of the game.

 

[Irenaeus]

There's already a lot of quests and interactions in first act of the game.

Your Indigo Tide has increased by a TINY amount.
Your Golden Tide has increased by a TINY amount.

 

[Prime Junta]

Your Golden Tide has increased by a TINY amount.

 

[HoboForEternity]

Bard's Tale 4 looks like ridiculously cheap UE4 game that's going to be a hot mess when it's pushed out the door, is a cheapass UE4 game that will be a hot mess when it's pushed out the door, and is going to be a galactic sized disappointment to the Fargo dickriders on the InEx forums.

And Roxor complaining about “Dungeon Rats” being false advertised as a dungeon crawler! Just wait until this pile of dung is released. It will be a complete popamole game with sandbox features. LOL The butthurt will be glorious. I’m calling again.

pillars of eternity 2: electric bugaloo

 

[FeelTheRads]

K, I played it for a while until I got a bug where I can't enter the labyrinth anymore, it just stops loading mid-way. Reported.

 

[Fairfax]

after a few dialogue nodes I just surrendered and continued with "press 1, press enter to continue without reading, press 1, press enter, press 1" because it was honestly just unreadable. Without the conscious fishing I mentioned, I probably would have skipped half the texts in the game in this manner.

That's pretty much why I've stopped playing the beta. I don't like skipping dialogue, and I knew I wouldn't all that drivel again in the final game.

 

[Blaine]

- The dialogue is most certainly not good. Apart from the few interesting tertiary characters, it is mostly complete tripe. Too long, overwrought, bland, nonsensical. I was paying close attention to it because I was consciously fishing for examples of really rampant stupidity (and ho boy there's lots), but even then some of them I couldn't stomach. There's a Not-Smoldering Corpse Bar in the city with a bunch of ex-adventurers or whatever, who are so extraordinarily boring that after a few dialogue nodes I just surrendered and continued with "press 1, press enter to continue without reading, press 1, press enter, press 1" because it was honestly just unreadable. Without the conscious fishing I mentioned, I probably would have skipped half the texts in the game in this manner. Still, bad dialogue can at least be saved by a servicable story. However...

I've only played through exiting the sarcophagus room so far, but I've already noticed this, too. The text is eloquent and beautifully proofread, yet it's also at least equal parts pretentious and tryhard. I get the distinct sense that they're trying to shoehorn in meaning and profundity without having a whole lot of substance to actually say.

Unlike in PS:T, it also feels as though the game world and story have been custom-tailored for the player character's journey, which is not good. Virtually every great RPG maintains the illusion that its world is alive, isn't custom-tailored to the player, and on the whole couldn't care less whether or not the player falls off a cliff (might not literally be true, but will seem to be true for the bulk of the game).

On the other hand, PS:T starts off in the Mortuary, whereas T:ToN begins inside the Last Castoff's own mind. Guess you can't blame someone's own mind for tailoring itself to them, but why do it at all? Still, the game's beginning at least tries to innovate, so it deserves credit for that at least. It's basically a disguised "You awaken in a cryosleep pod with no memories" game start, except that you hallucinate your way through falling into the pod from the sky rather than actually waking up inside of it. Again though, it gets points for trying.

- I can't quite decide whether the story is non-existent or completely stupid. In essence, your "main objective" is supposed to be "You are a bhaalspawn castoff. Find someone who can fix your macguffin to stop Dahaka The Sorrow from eating you". The Sorrow is some kind of horrific cosmic horror that really really wants to eat you. Except the Sorrow appears just once during the intro and doesn't appear ever again. Some really fucking extra critical threat this. Of course, you soon find out that your macguffin can probably be fixed only by another castoff. You find said castoff, and she tells you to go find a castoff in a whole CITY of castoffs, and maybe HE can fix your macguffin for you! Meanwhile, while running around between zones, you will notice that suspiciously much going on in the world, the city, everything, has castoffs behind it. Castoffs are hiding behind every corner and in every memory, they are legion, and they are responsible for EVERYTHING. Every moment in the history of the city? It was castoffs! People in the city going crazy? It was castoffs! Strange machinery? Castoffs! Slavers? Castoffs! Cults and scholars? Castoffs! Castoffs, castoffs, castoffs, more like fuck offs! Castoffs being the sole answer to every single problem in this fucking game is not only absurd, it's also fucking idiotic. Each time something happens, you know there is AT LEAST one castoff behind it.

They also fully reveal the game's "main objective," MacGuffin, and menacing cosmic horror within the opening minutes of the game, ruining much of any potential sense of mystery. Mystery is an oft-overlooked component of great RPGs whose inclusion or absence I've always been particularly sensitive to, because in my opinion it's one of the most vital components.

In PS:T, you slowly unravel the mystery of TNO over dozens of hours of play. In T:ToN, they immediately slap you in the face with a cold, slimy fish.

The Sorrow is a great specific example. They drop far too many hints by the time you're finished with the sarcophagus room.

Spoiler

It's immediately clear that the fabric of the universe (or its functionally identical counterpart/equivalent) is offended by the Changing God's immortality and sooner or later "infests" all of his bodies in its quest to end his unnatural longevity.

Furthermore, even the very name "Last Castoff" reveals more to the player than it should. If you know that the Changing God makes castoffs, and you know that you are the last one of those castoffs, then you know that something drastic has occurred in the Changing God's life/routine/etc., something different than before... but not by deducing this fact. The name's just there and simply gives it away.

- Numenera, both the setting and the ruleset, is complete and utter garbage. The setting is garbage because it's a circus where everything goes. Fallout 3 is less of a clownish theme park than Numenera. The ruleset is garbage, and I have a feeling inXile also happened to notice that once they sat down to the game mechanics - I am 100% certain they had no idea what they were getting into when they announced that Tworment would be using the Numederpa system, and it shows by the additions that they kept making to it. Tl;dr, Numenera is a system where, in combat, you say "I attack", then roll d20 and you either hit or not. There is nothing else to it, no defensive rolls or actual modifiers, nothing. So inXile at least added stuff like Willpower and Evasion mods to combat, because "I attack, the end" wouldn't make for good combat in a crpg. But it's all sisyphean labour, because even with the fixes and additions, the ruleset still remains fucking numederpa, and because of this, the whole "crisis" shtick is completely wasted.

And because the underlying Numederpa system is total garbage, everything that stems from it is also garbage. Character management/advancement/definition is garbage. Itemisation is garbage. Combat is garbage. The effort system, while promising conceptually, actually falls flat on its face in practice - when inXile added HP to the game, everyone assumed it was an attempt at dumbing down. No, I say it was another desperate attempt to find their way out of a retarded system that they cluelessly forced themselves into. Whether that was a good idea is up for debate.

I read Numenera cover-to-cover when it arrived in the mail, and declined to review it (as I'd suggested I might do) because it was so intensely mediocre and uninteresting—neither bad enough for a humorous panning, nor good enough to be exciting—that I felt it simply wasn't worth the effort. I tossed out a few blurbs in some thread or another by way of discussion, but that was it.

Note however that Numenera should still do quite nicely as a setting for T:ToN.

Can't disagree with you vis-a-vis the mechanics. They're garbage, essentially the worst of two worlds (the worst parts of nuD&D combined with the bad ideas and archetype-shoehorning of some other Godawful system). I suppose I'll have to play the full game to know how fucked the setting turns out to be.

Something else I noticed right away: The generic character model and its stiff, awkward stances and animations are one Hell of a lot less interesting than The Nameless One's spriting.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The generic character model and its stiff, awkward stances and animations are one Hell of a lot less interesting than The Nameless One's spriting.

But it has ROOT MOSHUN!!! FOR EXTREME INTELLECTUAL IMMERSHUN!!!