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toro

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Simply not true: the game doesn't force you to do all the quests in a certain order. Like I've said before: you don't know what linear means.

The game doesn’t force me to do the quests in a certain order, but it forces me to do the same fucking quests every single time. How am I supposed to enjoy different builds if I have to walk around like a retarded, killing hundreds of rathounds, and crossing the same tunnels back and forth? Traditional design of cRPGs is aimed at brain dead children.

The game doesn't force you to do ALL the quests and you can skip a lot of content. From the start you can take a boat to Junkyard and skip a lot of caverns, you can skip the entire Camp Hathor and afterwards you can go directly to Core City at which point the entire game is accessible (except DC).

Now, I'm sorry that the game forces you to kill some and maybe the same rathounds (without proper paranoia you will never know) however you're completely dishonest claiming that you need to kill hundreds of rathounds to progress in the game. You don't.

Wrong again: You don't need to and you cannot "grind" for oddities. The game is smart enough that oddities occur in a natural way in the game world (by exploration and by combat).

That is not the point. The system was designed to avoid grinding behavior, but it doesn’t work that way, because it creates the same incentives. You are rewarded for engaging in fights you don’t need or repeating mindless tasks to level up. This is still traditional design in its finest. It’s gamey as fuck. Impossible to defend.

Nope. The Oddities system works fine. You can kill a couple of mobs, collect the oddities from them and then move on because you no longer need those oddities and you have a stealth system that allows you to skip most fights (or you can simply run). So, if you persist in fighting the same mobs then it's your own choice.

I'm sorry that the game doesn't have proper rat diplomacy so that you can negotiate your escape with the rathounds. As for being gamey, please tell me one game system which is not gamey.

However cooldowns are not exclusive to the MMO genre which means your argument is invalid. Most MMO contain a map therefore I could say that by lacking a map Underrail was definitely not designed as a MMORPG!? Does this make sense to you?

The difference is that cooldowns are a feature of combat systems, not a basic functionality like maps or journals. Nobody ever complained about how the basic functionalities in MMOs, but they can complain about the combat.

Whatever. Please explain how cool-downs in Underrail prove that the game was designed as a MMORPG.

Underrail writing is great. It's not boggled by pretentious shit and it's actually refreshing compared to other games (as in it's a good match for the game world). Now, please show me WHY the writing in Underrail is bad? I'm all ears.

What the hell I’m doing with my time. If you can’t realize why a character named “Joe the beautiful” who gives locations in exchange for food is not a great idea, I think you aren’t worth the effort.

It's Jon the Beautiful and you can ignore him which probably is unthinkable when you are grasping at straws.

I don't know. I honestly don't know why you waste your time when you don't know what you want.

The game is not shit just because you say so or because you found a couple of flaws. Get over it.
 
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Self-Ejected

aweigh

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Azrael the cat

everything you said I agree with, except I disagree with something it seems you're implying: from reading your last post it feels like you're implying Wizardry 7 is inherently a better game than the previous 6; and while that's fine (to each their own, I won't begrudge someone their preference) it reads like in the process Wiz 1-6 are automatically devalued by being referred to as mere stepping stones or milestones.

same thing applies to the Ultima series, as many would agree that the earlier entries are superior games to the later entries (as is the case with Wizardry, IMO). Just because a game is old does not mean it has to be relegated as a "history lesson", and 8 times out of 10 times the older the game the better it plays than its more modern successors.

this is something that many posters here do and I don't know if they ever stop to think about what they're doing when talking about an older game. They use words like 'crude' or 'primitive' or simply because a game is old without realizing that the same game mechanics they're describing are almost always superior to the ones that have replaced them.
 

Serus

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Another Mondblut... Teleporting in large quantities only exists in starting city (and i agree it is overdone/stupid - but is a minor thing really - doesn't change much), and there are things to explore, discover and do there by walking around on foot.

There are no teleports! Ok, there are teleports, but they are few! Ok, they are overdone in starting city, but that's really a minor thing!

You fanbois sound like democrats talking about Trump's nomination. :lol:
:nocountryforshitposters:
The funny part is i share most of your views on CRPGs... Liking AoD was a pleasant surprise to me after having poor first experience with it (being a fanboy and all...). You should fight the good fight but try to keep your retardation enthusiasm in check and direct your anger towards targets that truly deserve it - like storyfag games without proper gameplay masquerading as CRPG. This isn't one of them . :D
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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That doesn’t make your precious assumption a magic argument that wins the discussion. In case you haven’t notice, freedom in PnP usually means different choices, not just different ways to kill things. But who gives a fuck about the nature of the very stuff that cRPGs should be about, am I right?
:hmmm:

Let's just say that drunk posting doesn't bring out the best in people! :D
 

mondblut

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You should fight the good fight but try to keep your retardation enthusiasm in check and direct your anger towards targets that truly deserve it - like storyfag games without proper gameplay masquerading as CRPG. This isn't one of them . :D

Normally I do just that, but the insufferable "best gaem evar" fanbois grate on my nerves. :)
 
Joined
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Just calling something nostalgia is devoid of logic

To my mind, nostalgia is a pretty logically relevant factor if someone states he wants to relive a certain 'sense of wonder' that he experienced in his formative years but now does not anymore, for whatever reason.

Most importantly, in contrast to what some posters are are misrepresenting my argument like, I did not "simply" call something nostalgia, nor did I invoke rose-tinted glasses, called anyone a nostalgiafag or any other kind of such nonsense;

I emphasized that personal and historical context influences ones perception. I consider that to be a pretty self-evident notion.

Funny how it blasted so many butts. I like old games too, guys.

i still disagree. i tried master of orion 2 recently and i couldn't stand its interface. i might have found its mechanics limited too.
 

Stelcio

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Jan 18, 2012
Messages
237
i still disagree. i tried master of orion 2 recently and i couldn't stand its interface. i might have found its mechanics limited too.

Obviously, some games are good enough to struggle through their flaws while others aren't. Nostalgia factor have an impact on that as well, that's why people who loved certain games in the past are more likely to replay them than fresh genre fans, who loathe the low-res graphics and clunky UI, reasonably so. That doesn't change the fact that old games have many appealing qualities, but also doesn't change the fact that most of them are in their entirety crap by today's standards, crap that only the most determined and desperate individuals can suffer to refine their demanded qualities from.

On the other hand today's RPGs often lack those qualities, but offer others, while at the same time presenting decent to excellent production values - understandably considering older games are, well, older. Saying those new wave RPGs worse is thus either unreasonable or heavily based on one's expectations, which are in turn heavily founded in one's early experiences with the genre, ones that formed this person's archetype (or even an ethos) of a role-playing game.

Case in point: DARKLANDS

The game OP mentions as one of the examples of breathtaking RPG experiences he had in the past.

Darklands is a game with a very unique, entertaining concept, a nice fantasy take on a medieval setting and tons of replayability.

Darklands is also a terrible piece of shit software with barely readable font, messy, unintuitive interface, clunky, chaotic combat, a few badly executed mechanics and shitload of bugs.

I love Darklands, I love it even though I have no nostalgia towards it, playing it for the first time only a few years ago. That said I have no patience to suffer through its flaws anymore, so unless there is a remake made, and a good one, I'd rather play something else for my freeroam RPG kicks. It's a great concept, but the game itself is ultimately shit by today's standards. Yet some people play it regularily - and I blame nostalgia that I lack.

But let's not pretend there aren't equally ambitious games around here and there. For Darklands kind of kick I'd mention Expeditions: Conquistador or even The Guild series to some extent, both pretty niche, trying to do something fresh for better or worse. For each kind of RPG kick you could probably find similiar examples, though probably not the high-profile titles like PoE or Torment which are obvious, blatant nostalgia-driven cash grabs with the latter even being literally called like its "spiritual predecessor". Wasteland 2 being a sequel is a no-brainer as well, though considering the age of the franchise, it was probably fresh for many, but still tried to benefit from the established IP. You want the good stuff? You have to dig deeper - RPGs aren't a mainsteram genre anymore, but the indie scene is thriving and so do indie RPGs.
 

bminorkey

Guest
(Reverse nostalgia) I played KotOR 2 lately. Really weaker than I remembered it. Writing has some good ideas but most of the dialogue really falls short. Everything else was always meh.
 

Jason Liang

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The RPG classics can't solely be judged as a self-contained thing; they all innovated the genre in significant and enduring ways. When I was working on my RPG theory thread, I thought very hard about Darklands and how so many of the ideas that were in Darklands that are common in RPGs today weren't in the games that came before it. I think the greatest and most enduring aspect about Darklands was how it encouraged you to design characters that functioned outside of combat. That skill system where you had rogue skills and crafting skiills and talk skills (different languages!) and you had to commit to those skills beforehand (something that AoD would have benefited from!) without knowing how they would be used - but you could imagine!. It also had an innovative weapon and armor system which encouraged fighters to learn to use and carry a variety of arms; javelins, hammers against armored foes, flails against shielded foes, swords against unarmored foes. Darklands also placed emphasis on training; instead of a level system. You had to visit monasteries to learn new prayers, find a good alchemist willing to teach you formulas etc....

I think the new games of the past 10 years or so have also had their own innovations and sometimes we are too quick to judge them and don't give enough credit to their innovations. A lot of AoD is poorly implemented, but AoD deserves credit for doing something that's proven very difficult to do- implement top notch tactical combat. AoD's tactical combat is so well *designed*- as in, thought out- that I would even call it revolutionary. You finally have a system that balances weapons, armor, combat skills and AP in an interesting way. It's not perfect but it's hard to argue that any RPG except *perhaps* ToEE has a more perfectly designed tactical system. Sure, nets and bolas break the system- but ITS could have easily nerfed them if they cared. In fact, it is incline that they made nets and bolas so powerful- historically, nets *were* OP, and were one of the most common tactics used in midieval warfare. If I were designing a tactical system for an RPG today, I would completely crib from AoD. That's saying something.

It's true that the "whole package" of the new RPGs haven't gotten there, but that doesn't mean there aren't innovative ideas and designs pushing the envelope. A better RPG hasn't been made yet, but the systems are significantly improving.
 

Skittles

He ruins the fun.
Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Messages
983
You should fight the good fight but try to keep your retardation enthusiasm in check and direct your anger towards targets that truly deserve it - like storyfag games without proper gameplay masquerading as CRPG. This isn't one of them . :D

Normally I do just that, but the insufferable "best gaem evar" fanbois grate on my nerves. :)

This thread--and your posts in particular--inspired me to reinstall AoD to see if my memories of it were too charitable. I'm about at the end of a full run through and I think you'd enjoy it if you were to give it a go. The combat system does have its limitations, just starting to wear out its welcome with my particular build at the end of ~20 hours of a moderately combat-heavy run through. I'm currently at 175 kills, which I think is respectable for a game that avoids trashmobs and where I *tried* to subterfuge my way past many encounters.

The teleportation was specifically toned down after feedback on the Teron demo. The only time I really chafed at it was during a few missions where once you start, you're forced to continue from encounter to encounter without pause. Apart from that, I felt decently rewarded for just wandering around the cities in the game--I'd always like to see more content, but it's hardly a vacuum to give an illusion of space between quest givers.

Besides all that, it earns some points with me for punishing you for RPing a paladin rather than a dedicated muderhobo.
 

Jason Liang

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I am looking back over my list of top 25 RPGs-

Table 1: My top 25 Computer RPG list

Title [Genre]

1. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines [adventure]
2. Neverwinter Nights [adventure]
3. Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn + ToB [adventure]
4. Ultima V [sandbox]
5. Planescape: Torment [storytelling]
6. Sengoku Rance [strategic]
7. Star Control 2 [strategic]
8. Temple of Elemental Evil [tactical]
9. Knights of the Old Republic II [adventure]

10. Fallout 2 [sandbox]
11. Wizardry 7 [tactical]
12. Jagged Alliance 2 [tactical]
13. Pool of Radiance [tactical]
14. Ultima IV [sandbox]
15. Shadowrun: Dragonfall [tactical]
16. Invisible Inc [tactical]
17. Wizardry I [tactical]
18. Arcanum [sandbox]
19. Darklands [sandbox]

~ There's a gap here where the great RPGs that I haven't played go (like Gothic, Morrorwind, etc), so KotOR et al... are probably more like 30ish than 20ish

20. Knights of the Old Republic [adventure]
21. Fallout [sandbox]
22. Baldur's Gate [adventure]
23. Age of Decadence [tactical]
24. Wizardry V [tactical]
25. Wizardry 8 [tactical]

The greatest RPGs are nearly always sequels, or at least use an engine from a previous game so that they aren't fiddling around with the engine itself. The original games, which are filled with innovative ideas, feel like unpolished engine demos. Even Sengoku Rance had dry runs with Kichikou Rance. It's not until the second game of the series (usually) that everything comes together to produce a great classic.

In fact, even me putting NWN at #2, that's not the OC. That's SoU and the mods that came years after NWN OC. There's a reason why I ended up putting AoD by BG: EE. It has the same immature feel as BG: EE and Fallout and Wiz 8, whereas the best RPGs are the sequels which bring the whole package to the table, reaching maturity. The game in the series is an immature 13 year old girl. The second game is a 23 year old girl who has reached physical maturity. The third game is a 33 year old MILF. The four game is a 43 year old cougar. After that, you aren't dating her- you're dating her daughter.

So basically? If you thought the Darklands was special, we really missed out on Darklands 2. And it means we should save our expectations of greatness for AoD 2.
 

Goral

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Simply not true: the game doesn't force you to do all the quests in a certain order. Like I've said before: you don't know what linear means.
It doesn't force you but it is recommended because otherwise quests often don't make sense and don't acknowledge your previous actions, e.g. a quest with Faceless in Foundry. Also, most quests can be done in 1 way only and 2 is maximum while in Age of Decadence every quest can be done in at least 3 ways (and somet).

As for teleports, they aren't that often and when they do appear they are for obvious places, e.g. Feng's. You have a Feng sign in a small town with few buildings, why would you want to waste time on walking there? Is it that hard to find that place? Can't you speak and ask for directions? Are you a Bethestard and think it's fun to walk pointlessly killing trashmobs along the way? In UR sections are so small that you need to reach red area very often (some are micro areas which serve only as a crossroad) and reaching a metro or some other location often requires you to go the roundabout way (for example going down the stairs, because you can't just step down and go to the metro directly or there are obstacles so you have to circle around to reach a place that's 3 tiles away from you). The same goes for cities, usually there are 1-3 NPCs in an area that aren't pointless, to reach another relevant one you need to take a lift/elevator or just go to another red rectangle. And all of this in a turtle pace.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...e-game-of-the-year.106067/page-4#post-4311525

(...) however you're completely dishonest claiming that you need to kill hundreds of rathounds to progress in the game. You don't.
You don't have to if you have that rathound king armor, otherwise you do. Sometimes you can escape them (but only sometimes, often there are so many of them that they're blocking your way), sometimes you can use a boat or a metro to avoid them but there is so much backtracking here that sooner or later you will fight them over and over. For that reason I was using rathound king's armor the moment I got it for the rest of the game (and it was before Tchort got nerfed).
 
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Goral

Arcane
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quest compass pointing at quest targets is bad, instantly teleporting to quest targets is teh awesome
In a town as small as Teron not adding the shortcut is an insult to one's intelligence (especially in a game like AoD which is aimed at replayability). And it's optional if you're a popamoler and want to waste your time instead. Actually I can't remember a single instant where it's not optional. In early access there were quite a few examples like that but VD listened to Bethtards.
 
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toro

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Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,023
quest compass pointing at quest targets is bad, instantly teleporting to quest targets is teh awesome
In a town as small as Teron not adding the shortcut is an insult to one's intelligence (especially in a game like AoD which is aimed at replayability). And it's optional if you're a popamoler and want to waste your time instead. Actually I can't remember a single instant where it's not optional. In early access there were quite a few examples like that but VD listened to Bethtards.
:hahyou:
 

Jazz_

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The problem is not teleport per se, allah knows it can be handy in some rpgs (in Underrail they could have at least allowed to teleport to your station or some other central hub, it would have helped the game), the problem is that AoD is designed around it, meaning that there is no content/gameplay/player agency in between the set pieces you teleport/go to.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
How do you even design your game 'around' the teleports, as opposed to just putting a teleport in after you make a quest when you realise there's pointless walking? Maybe there should be random monster encounters inbetween the Teron doctor and the Teron assassin's guild?
 

Skittles

He ruins the fun.
Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Messages
983
The problem is not teleport per se, allah knows it can be handy in some rpgs (in Underrail they could have at least allowed to teleport to your station or some other central hub, it would have helped the game), the problem is that AoD is designed around it, meaning that there is no content/gameplay/player agency in between the set pieces you teleport/go to.

In the hubs, there are side quests to be acquired and encounters to blunder into, alchemy ingredients to collect, some non-obvious ways of accessing hidden areas, and random NPCs who might have something interesting to say as well as the fact that you can't zip to vendors without discovering them or many of the game's primary questgivers in the first place. The game world is a little small, but to say there's no content is untrue.
 

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