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Pretentious lore

Delterius

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I don't know who the hell started this trend (is it Josh Sawyer?)
The founder of modern fantasy, yes.



Wait what... who are you singularly giving the title of "founder of modern fantasy" to?

Josh Sawyer, the first man to write stories about made up races, made up kingdoms, fancy magic being omnipresent, or made up creatures and heroes.
 

Parsifarka

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This is in General RPG discussion, but can I mention Assassin's Creeds God awful lore?.
The worst was its portrayal of Savonarola in the DLC for the second installment, I almost puked. I hate that game.

And I hate lore dumps. Those cheap bastards can not write cool user manuals anymore so they throw their shit into the game hindering the flow instead of entertaining the good old bathroom reader. Good RPGs have more text written in printed, physical items than in-game.
 

Projas

Information Superhighwayman
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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
This is why in spite of its simple but endearing characters and setting, to me Baldur's Gate 2 had a better story than Planescape Torment. I'm sorry but I just don't give a damn about "finding myself in a videogame" by having "deep conversations" with NPCs over a landscape looking like a Dali painting with imaginary races who do stupid things.
Well, at least you are sorry. There are many people who are completely unapologetic about liking Bioware's shit writing.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
For me it's not about how "pretentious" the content is - it's all down to presentation. "Lore Dumps" are bad. If you have to flat out explain to me how the world is, you fucked up. Show me instead.

Don't tell me
" Hobbits and Dwarves have hated each other ever since the undead invaded both their lands during a war known as the Gloaming, which each blames the other for. "
zzzzzzzzz

Instead have a halfling NPC complain,
" That damned Zwalin still won't sell me the good ale! How many times do I have to tell him, halflings didn't cause the fucking Gloaming! "
and DO NOT give me a dialogue option
" 3. Tell me more about this Gloaming. "

If you have NPCs talk about it enough in normal conversation, the player will (1) care and (2) be able to figure it out themselves.

It's like when a science fiction writer will write, "I strapped on my mask and stepped into the street" ... he doesn't have to explain why the guy wears a mask unless it is directly relevant to the action. When he mentions it enough times, the reader will internalize it and accept it as a normal thing. He may even wonder about it later if the mask isn't mentioned.

The signposts, that's what bothers me in game writing. Respect your reader's intelligence; just have the characters talk like they actually live in that world, and all your cool details will emerge organically. If they don't, they weren't important in the first place, and you know what they say about perfection.

-----------

Now - although many games fail to present in an interesting way, they're still not entirely to blame. How often do you see something like this:

"Fools! You are too late to stop the ancient ritual! I shall summon IOSOGOROTH no matter what!"

1. "Fiendish mage! I call your motivations into question! Has not the study of the ancient texts driven you to madness?"
2. "But consider! If IOSOGOROTH is summoned, will he not also destroy all that you hold dear, as was written?"
3. "You misunderstand! We are here to help with the ceremony!"
4. <Attack>

We all see where this is going, but how many of us press 4? It seems to me that most lore dumps are completely skippable. You don't have to choose the stupid "Tell me more about ..." dialogue options. That's why they're called "options". Bad writing is bad, no argument there - but if you choose to read it all anyway, that's your fault.
 
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MRY

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That's why they're called "options". Bad writing is bad, no argument there - but if you choose to read it all anyway, that's your fault.
We are 99% in agreement, but not on this point.

Obviously, it is literally true that (assuming the existence of free will) a player has a choice whether to pick the "give me more lore" option. Note that the same argument can apply to many other flaws in games -- "A grossly overpowered item is bad, but if you choose to equip it anyway, that's your fault"; "Level scaling that incentives tagging the skills you used least is only a problem if you exploit the system" "You can always close to pop-up window telling you how to solve the crisis" -- though of course the argument is more or less persuasive depending on the circumstances.

The thing is, there are both sensible and neurotic reasons a player can't just pick 4. From the sensible standpoint, experience and other rewards are often (though not always) hidden behind 1-3. The game is sometimes balanced on the presumption that you will get those rewards. Sometimes the rewards are not power-ups, but opportunities to do the non-lore-dump things you might want to do -- like use the persuasion skill rather than fighting. Obviously players can pick ~4 and then not read the text dump they get in response, but (1) that is actually what most people do to some degree and (2) it is hard to completely do it because our eyes will automatically start skimming even if we don't want to.

I am somewhat less concerned with "sensible" decision making, though, because it is totally obvious to me that a huge number of players, myself included, are not able to make "good" choices (by which I mean, the choices that make the game the most fun and satisfying experience) without the game supporting and encouraging good choices and discouraging bad choices. Once you put some mediocre items in 15% of the trashcans in a game, a very large portion of players will feel compelled to look in every trashcan, even if it isn't necessary, even if it super boring, because of a mix of immediate completionism ("gotta catch them all!") and fear of losing an edge that will permit later completionism (e.g., the extra gold will let me buy a charisma-boosting ring that will let me unlock an additional dialogue option with my companion which will let me find out more of his backstory....).

If players are picking lore dumps even if they really don't particularly like them, it's probably not effective to harangue them about it, since the unpleasantness of the lore dump is already worse than your harangue. The obligation is on the game designer to steer players away from Skinner box neuroticism and toward meaningful and engaging gameplay that rewards through the thrill and fun and pride of playing, rather than by the mere stimulus of operant conditioning rewards. Even if a particular developer isn't actually using operant condition to encourage players to read loredumps (for example, by giving the player achievements for reading dialogue or XP rewards), that doesn't absolve the developer from an obligation to decondition players.

--EDIT--

By the way, I feel obliged to make clear that "good" and "bad" choices here are not referring to good or bad character builds or something like that. I have views on that topic, but I am not here saying that developers need to make sure players make "winning" choices; if anything, the problem is that players are too concerned with winning, even if it means winning in a totally boring way.
 
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Zombra

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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
From the sensible standpoint, experience and other rewards are often (though not always) hidden behind 1-3. The game is sometimes balanced on the presumption that you will get those rewards. Sometimes the rewards are not power-ups, but opportunities to do the non-lore-dump things you might want to do -- like use the persuasion skill rather than fighting. Obviously players can pick ~4 and then not read the text dump they get in response, but (1) that is actually what most people do to some degree and (2) it is hard to completely do it because our eyes will automatically start skimming even if we don't want to.
Ehhhhhh I'm going to call bullshit. There may be superior "material" rewards (xp, etc) behind "talkier" options, but I don't buy that these are ever going to be significant enough to be required to complete a game. Of course if we're talking about an "achiever" player for whom the goal is ALL THE XP ALL THE TIME, even at the expense of fun, then he needs to shut the fuck up about what is and is not fun.

As for the non-material rewards such as dialogue opportunities ... if you make a persuasion-based character, you are tacitly agreeing to a dialogue-heavy play style, i.e. reading more writing. If you hate the lockpicking minigame and do a playthrough as a lockpick specialist, you are being stupid.

I am somewhat less concerned with "sensible" decision making, though, because it is totally obvious to me that a huge number of players, myself included, are not able to make "good" choices (by which I mean, the choices that make the game the most fun and satisfying experience) without the game supporting and encouraging good choices and discouraging bad choices. Once you put some mediocre items in 15% of the trashcans in a game, a very large portion of players will feel compelled to look in every trashcan, even if it isn't necessary, even if it super boring, because of a mix of immediate completionism and fear of losing an edge that will permit later completionism.
Absolutely agreed, and this actually ties into my point. Design is a huge influence on player behavior. BUT. Players, or at least players on RPG Codex, are becoming sophisticated and analytical enough that they should be able to start recognizing these influences and take some responsibility for their own actions. To be brief, I have stopped looking in every trash can and I still enjoy games - in fact, I enjoy them more than ever because I've stopped.

The obligation is on the game designer to steer players away from Skinner box neuroticism and toward meaningful and engaging gameplay that rewards through the thrill and fun and pride of playing, rather than by the mere stimulus of operant conditioning rewards. Even if a particular developer isn't actually using operant condition to encourage players to read loredumps, that doesn't absolve the developer from an obligation to decondition players.
Totally agreed again. The designer does have a responsibility to design for fun behavior and stop rewarding boring behavior. If he doesn't, he is crap. But a player that goes along with everything (and even complains about his own behavior!) is also crap.

You there! You reading this! Next time you see that dialogue option you're not looking forward to reading, don't press it, even if you think you're "supposed" to. Skip whole quests if you think they're stupid - I bet you can beat the game anyway. If the whole game sucks, don't play it at all; but if you like it except for [that one part], don't play [that part]. Stop being crap. Stop digging through those goddamned trash cans. I promise you'll be a happier gamer.

:brodex:

. I promise! .
 
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Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Kinda funny how HHR really just wanted to make a post about how fantasy has become postmodern and gay and people interpreted it as a complaint about "loredumps". I guess the two things are tangentially related but it's not really the root of his problem.
 
Repressed Homosexual
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I don't see why it can't be both. I do hate when the game insults me, who has a degree of adult intelligence and limited time, and rubs its lore all over the place, whereas in the past it was usually much easier to ignore. For instance it's probably why I never got very far in Avadon. Geneforge is a series that had a lot of descriptions, but most of it just helped set the mood and then the game let you explore and talk to people, gather up clues on your own. But Avadon however forces you to venture our with companions who are always interrupting the plot and going on about their feelings, and the NPCs you meet in general hold your hand a great deal more than in Vogel's past games.

Or maybe it is the designers that have become especially postmodern and gay. I think since the industry became mainstream and less of a niche, it attracts a ton of people who aren't nerds with no further intent than to make cool games to play, but who rather want to look good in front of others or have other ulterior motives.
 

MRY

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I think the idea that PoE-style lore dumps appeal to mainstream players and not to nerds is backwards, though perhaps it's a matter of humanities nerds displacing the STEM nerds who were early cRPG adopters.
 

Skittles

He ruins the fun.
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I think the idea that PoE-style lore dumps appeal to mainstream players and not to nerds is backwards, though perhaps it's a matter of humanities nerds displacing the STEM nerds who were early cRPG adopters.

Yeah, there's definitely nobody in a STEM field who ever read The Silmarillion for fun.

Joking aside, I think it's the pulp/fantasy/sci-fi literature baggage behind the lore dumps. It's not just the content that HHR is complaining about. It's that quite often people who play RPGs and cRPGs read those genres where lengthy exposition dumps are in fact quite common due to unusual settings/concepts and, to be honest, laziness. These players as developers of cRPGs adopt the same style because their taste has been ruined/they see it as an important feature of the genre(s)/they're too hurried to avoid committing the same sins for the same reasons; as consumers of cRPGs, they show a high tolerance for it or even appreciation for consuming lore dumps.

Then it becomes a self-reinforcing circle. People expect lore in RPGs, so RPGs have to have lore. Pen some nonsense as lazily as possible, sell the game, rinse, and repeat, all while strengthening the idea that RPGs have to have oodles of lore shoehorned in. Even a little sincere passion for setting building or writing in cRPGs seems to land all sorts of crap on the Codex's collective 'best evar' list, e.g., Morrowind, F:NV, and P:T (I'm as guilty as anybody of this). The critical acclaim for those games on those grounds just inspires more insipid games in the next generation--PoE, etc.--diligently doing their homework and loading up the game with exposition to check a box.
 

Lyric Suite

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no really

think about it, why are older ppl so averse to trying new things

Because new shit sucks.

At any rate, i gotta say i agree with HHR completely here. I'm really getting sick of all this made up fantasy bullshit. Made up myths, made up legends and histories that have nothing interesting about them and are completely irrelevant to anything.
 
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Unwanted

Kalin

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made up races, made up kingdoms, fancy magic being omnipresent, or made up creatures and heroes "fighting for noble ideals"... I don't know who the hell started this trend (is it Josh Sawyer?)

lol, it's definitely somebody whose name starts with a J.

Whooops, there's you being smug and pretentious again...

You could get the same level of know-it-all combined with more genuine lols if you just said:

You mean like... J R R Tolkein?

He meant Jesus.
 

MRY

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Even a little sincere passion for setting building or writing in cRPGs seems to land all sorts of crap on the Codex's collective 'best evar' list, e.g., Morrowind, F:NV, and P:T (I'm as guilty as anybody of this). The critical acclaim for those games on those grounds just inspires more insipid games in the next generation--PoE, etc.--diligently doing their homework and loading up the game with exposition to check a box.
I guess I part ways a bit with this view, which seems to invite the endless "what is an RPG" debate. RPGs have a lot of stuff in them (tactical combat, resource management, character design and development, narrative, setting, exploration, C&C, power-gaming) and different games emphasize and excel at different aspects. If you took the narrative and setting away from PS:T, the only good thing left would probably be audiovisual, but by the same token, if you took the combat away from TOEE, there wouldn't be much there, either. I don't think there's anything wrong with an RPG emphasizing lore and setting, it's just assuming the risk that if its lore and setting are tedious, it should get severely dinged on that account, whereas the absurdity of Eye of the Beholder's lore and setting is pretty innocuous since it's so minimal.
 
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Skittles

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Sure, I don't have any particular desire to go down that path either and I agree with your latest post. I brought them up because they helped contribute to the popular conception, right or wrong, that cRPGs need exposition dumps--through dialog, through books, somehow. I think they each handled their lore well and referred to them as 'all sorts of crap' because each has what I consider pretty major design oversights/flaws that are only redeemed by their excellence at presenting lore, not merely because they're lore focused. But I think the common notion that RPGs have to have it, reinforced by the praise those and other otherwise mediocre games get, accounts for both the motivation behind and tolerance of mountains of shitty writing in so-called cRPGs.
 

MRY

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I think reviewers tend to be better at judging (or believe themselves better at judging) between good and bad stories, and as a result design defects get ignored. It's super obvious in the adventure game genre. For example, The Longest Journey is basically awful in terms of design, but it is routinely considered one of the top adventure games of all time because its story and graphics seem impressive. When people review WEG titles, including and maybe even especially Primordia, they are quick to lavish them with praise even though it's beyond obvious that none of the WEG titles has puzzle design on par with any commercial adventure game from the late 80s to the late 90s, with Resonance the best of a bad bunch but still at the very bottom of what Sierra and Lucas Arts made, albeit without some of the frustrations of bad Sierra games. Once narrative gets important, it has a way of crowding out other things -- in adventure games, "What narrative serves the gameplay?" became "What gameplay does not impede the narrative?" RPGs aren't as bad, but it's a similar kind of thing. It's not that surprising. Most people writing game stories have been telling stories their whole lives, but most people designing RPGs have relatively little experience doing it*, and very little competition.

(* Some may have been DMs but that's a really different thing.)
 
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Other genres typically have some kind of library or codex section to look up basic lore about a fantasy world (or a historical world in the case of games like Civilization). It's weird that RPG writers still have dialog options that treat the player character as a complete dumbfuck who needs what an aelf is explained to them when these things could be so easily stuffed away in a place that doesn't trick players into thinking "well if I don't pick this my character won't know what an aelf is and that's a bad thing".

Also modern RPGs have a huge problem in that they'll hand-hold players to such an extent that you could delete pretty much all of the text and they'd all be completable. In ye old days you asked about the Hub because it was actually important to figure out where to go, how to get there, what was on the way, etc. Nowadays when you don't need to know anything (your journal/quest markers will guide you) why not just spam through your dialog options till they loop, and then just go the way the game points you? I've been playing some M&M games for the first time recenly and the small amounts of lore are way more interesting when its information I need to complete riddles or find new places to explore.
 
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Tigranes

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'that doesn't trick players into thinking "well if I don't pick this my character won't know what an aelf is and that's a bad thing".'

Does anyone think that?
 

laclongquan

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We oldsters have lesser tolerance for wordiness because we read much and see there's actually very few new things. As such, why wading into the pool of bullshits to try to fish for the very rare new, when you can just ignore the whole thing.

Brevity is the soul of wit. Do you speak it, game writers?
 
Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

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'that doesn't trick players into thinking "well if I don't pick this my character won't know what an aelf is and that's a bad thing".'

Does anyone think that?

This question was answered and then debated by MRY and Zombra, but its clear that reading is an issue for you so instead of quoting them and adding something new to the conversation you post it as a new idea you alone are so superior about pointing out, aloof of the discussions of people who clearly don't warrant reading on account of them clearly not being capable of discussing things that only you are good at pointing out. Ie: your question has already been answered and your point, however accurate or inaccurate, is a perfect example of decline manifest. (And not even on a different page, just a few posts above your own on the exact same page, hence IRONY etc).
 
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oscar

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Obsidian seem to think they are much, much better writers than they really are. They also seem to do a better job with existing settings (Star Wars, Fallout etc) and fall oddly flat on their feet when they do their own thing.
 

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