Getting weaker instead of stronger

[deama]

What do you guys think of the concept of the player getting weaker as they leveled up?

Let's just take an easy example, diablo 2; what if the leveling system was the exact same, except that every level, the character would get slightly weaker, e.g. reduction to max hp, damage, mana...
Let's keep the numbers abstract for now. But to give some more perspective, let's say a lvl 99 naked char using a lvl 1 bow does 1 dmg average to a lvl 1 mob, but a lvl 1 naked char with a lvl 1 bow does 10 dmg average to a lvl 1 mob.

I think there's a jrpg game that does this right? Something to do with the hero getting older, thereby becoming weaker? I forgot the name...

 

[deama]

Yuusha shisu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_Must_Die

I was thinking of "To Ash", but that works fine too.

 

[Severian Silk]

I think Codexers' message count should decrease over time as well.

 

[makiavelli747]

Retards would not like that concept, you are taking away the whole purpose of the game.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

So, what would the purpose of the game be exactly? The balance would be shit. I mean, if we started out as some badass and basically have to fight against the clock, that's alright with me. But if I start out as some noob and end up as an even worse noob, holy shit what the fuck are you thinking?

 

[deama]

So, what would the purpose of the game be exactly? The balance would be shit. I mean, if we started out as some badass and basically have to fight against the clock, that's alright with me. But if I start out as some noob and end up as an even worse noob, holy shit what the fuck are you thinking?

It's basically a way to make the game feel like it's getting harder without trying to ramp up the numbers. It's just a balance idea I guess. You would still get skill/stat points though, it's just that your raw damage/hp/mp will go down.

So basically, fighting mephisto is gonna be extra hard.

 

[makiavelli747]

Of course in terms of balance it would be exactly the same. What's the point in increasing damage if enemies getting stronger too? Might as well make a game without progression at all, just some gameplay changes due to main story. But retards need a carrot above their nose.

 

[MRY]

I'm 90% sure we've talked about that concept in another thread, and I believe there's a Kickstarted Metroidvania with the concept. It's not a bad one. Incidentally, P&P RPGs, as well as many older RPGs (Darklands being one) incorporate the aging concept, but I believe the way it's been discussed is generally not tied to aging but to some other concept.

It's not bad but I think it translates best to action games where there is a player-skill progression that could offset a character-skill decline. RPGs typically don't have anything comparable, so I doubt it would work as well.

Notwithstanding the theoretical / contrarian appeal of the idea, I'm fairly sure it would not be very good in practice, since part of the fun of a well-made game is that as it goes on, you are able to do more, creating more strategic / tactical complexity. Ending the game mashing the attack button doesn't sound very satisfying.

 

[RK47]

What do you guys think of the concept of the player getting weaker as they leveled up?

Why not just put a time limit?
The faster you progress, the quicker you get to the end, the more power you retain for the final fight.
The more time you wasted, the more challenging it gets in the end game.

A simple narrative like: 'You've been poisoned, search for the cure' and it works just fine.

 

[Sacred82]

A player needs to get more options as he progresses to keep motivation up and basically have a justification for playing. If you somehow managed to do that while making him statistically weaker, it may work. Otherwise, no.

 

[MRY]

The obvious way to do that is weaker on one dimension, stronger on another. I remember designing some RPG as a teenager where a wizard companion's physical stats dropped while his magical ones went up until he turned into a demon or something. Ah, youth.

 

[Neanderthal]

Few thoughts:
1. Most CRPGs you're not gettin stronger in many respects, still doin same shit, bein treated same an solvin everythin exact same way, not changing at all.
2. I agree that you need more effects from adventurin an all crap you go through.
3. I like progression, like to see that i'm gettin somewhere, but player panderin has gone way too far.
4. I like to beard big bads in their lairs at later levels.
5. A trade off between health an expertise might be someat to investigate, but you gotta be careful how implemented, who wants to play as bein almost unable.
6. Then again you've got classic Raistlin wizard, broken body but mighty in arcane arts, if you had such a protagonist an a concept o magic drainin life then this might be worth explorin. Plus it dunt have to be your life, like Defiler from Athas or a Necromancer maybe.

 

[laclongquan]

It's counterinituitive to players.

For younger crowd, they dont want to get weaker as they age. Who would?
For older crowd, they dont want to be reminded of old age and death. Who would?

So there's no demand to it.
And if you want to supply reason, making the game stronger doesnt need that route. you can do it the other ways.

If you want to waste your time and ruin your game, keep doing that. Just dont say we didnt warn you.

 

[flabbyjack]

How about you start out as an ancient wizard and as time passes you get younger and less experienced (sic Merlin)

 

[Correct_Carlo]

I had an idea for an RPG using this premise once. Basically, it'd be set in the middle ages and your party would all have contracted the plague. You'd hear about a shaman that could allegedly heal you and venture forth to find him, getting weaker as you go. Along the way, you'd have to manage your stats by taking penalties as the plague eats away at your body. I described it more in detail at the time and it was like my most brofisted post ever, but I can't find it now that our profiles no longer list our most brofisted posts.

You men should donate money to me and I'll make it. Nevermind that I have no experience or skill at making games, much less freetime.

All that said, Darklands already kind of does this in a way, in that your characters age. So when you are young you will be stronger, yet less skilled, while as you age you will get physically weaker, yet be more adept with certain skills. And you eventually will die if you play long enough (although, you can always recruit more people when one dies). Conceiving of character development in RPGs as a trade off between strengths in this way (i.e. getting stronger in certain areas, while degenerating in others), rather than just a linear development from weak to strong, is an interesting approach I wish would have caught on in more games.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I had an idea for an RPG using this premise once. Basically, it'd be set in the middle ages and your party would all have contracted the plague. You'd hear about a shaman that could allegedly heal you and venture forth to find him, getting weaker as you go. Along the way, you'd have to manage your stats by taking penalties as the plague eats away at your body. I described it more in detail at the time and it was like my most brofisted post ever, but I can't find it now that our profiles no longer list our most brofisted posts.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/posts/3045745
Just click on the Stats link at the top of a post, if you want to see that user's 10 most brofisted posts.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

OK, thanks. This was my original pitch:

I want it to be set in Europe during the plague. The gimmick would be that everyone in your party already has the plague and are traveling on a religious pilgrimage because they heard that there is a mystical healer several countries over who can heal them. You would have two separate skill trees: one which builds your skills and stats and another representing the plague that would force you to choose various impediments as the game progresses, so much of character building would be managing the symptoms of the disease (and your character would, theoretically, get weaker the longer you play). Likewise, each character would have a terminal point so NPCs would eventually die (and they'll die sooner if you don't manage their symptoms properly). Of course, Bubonic plague kills relatively quickly so you'd probably have to fictionalize it somewhat, but that wouldn't be too hard to fudge reality on as the plague was a mysterious force back then. Anyhow, if I were writing the game I'd have the healer turn out to be a con artist and thus the entire game would just be one long coming to terms with the inevitability of death.

 

[Cadmus]

I don't see the point, it sounds fucking boring as well as dangerously similar to Skyrim.
MRY's idea of an aging frail but wiser wizard would work in a party based game to offset the character getting weaker.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

OK, thanks. This was my original pitch:

I want it to be set in Europe during the plague. The gimmick would be that everyone in your party already has the plague and are traveling on a religious pilgrimage because they heard that there is a mystical healer several countries over who can heal them. You would have two separate skill trees: one which builds your skills and stats and another representing the plague that would force you to choose various impediments as the game progresses, so much of character building would be managing the symptoms of the disease (and your character would, theoretically, get weaker the longer you play). Likewise, each character would have a terminal point so NPCs would eventually die (and they'll die sooner if you don't manage their symptoms properly). Of course, Bubonic plague kills relatively quickly so you'd probably have to fictionalize it somewhat, but that wouldn't be too hard to fudge reality on as the plague was a mysterious force back then. Anyhow, if I were writing the game I'd have the healer turn out to be a con artist and thus the entire game would just be one long coming to terms with the inevitability of death.

That sounds great, because it has progression. OP didn't have any other than level 99 does less damage than a level 1, which means you would want to avoid doing anything (or doing the least amount possible) to preserve your character as much as possible. I had previously mentioned fighting against the clock (such as your example) as this would actually have some kind of significance and wouldn't punish you for *doing* things.

 

[Sacred82]

I love it, except you have to fuse the skill trees somehow J_C. A "skill tree" that revolves around disease is a bit gamey, even though I do concur that coping with disease takes skill. So maybe, instead of a seperate skill tree, characters should have skills that allow them to make up for their attributes deteriorating as time passes.

 

[Kahr]

I thought about that myself in a sleepless night and it's basically total dumb idea instead of being creative.
Either you take the player certain skills which would be the equivalent of auto-leveling up. (total crap)
Or you let the player decide which skills they use.
Normal games prevent you from taking the only useful skills by your inexperience with the games system.
(You don't know that you only need the fireball, if you haven't used the fireball before.)
But here you would know which skills are good and could "level-down" useless skills like social skills or charisma.
Also such a game would be very off putting for beginners of the genre.
Even AoD has a Tutorial, you know... But how would a tutorial or just "starting level" in such a game look like?
Do you want to show the player each aspect of the game, which they would discover on their own in normal conditions?

This whole idea is just a half-assed attempt of being creative.
Therefore i'm surprised that there's not at least 20 Indie games which have tried exactly this.

Of course in terms of balance it would be exactly the same. What's the point in increasing damage if enemies getting stronger too? Might as well make a game without progression at all, just some gameplay changes due to main story. But retards need a carrot above their nose.

I argued this with my retarded brother in the past.
His arguments refering to A Link to the Past:
"Why do you need the Golden Sword and the Red Armor, if the enemies just keep getting stronger, too?
They could just as easy let me fight guards over the whole game with worse equipment."

 

[an Administrator]

Elminage Gothic has the same system. When your char reaches his/her/? age cap, you have higher chances of losing stats at level-up.

 

[Sacred82]

Even AoD has a Tutorial, you know... But how would a tutorial or just "starting level" in such a game look like?
Do you want to show the player each aspect of the game, which they would discover on their own in normal conditions?

The early game in an ARPG with no active skills, no equipment and few health potions fighting melee enemies plays completely different than the mid-late game too. Problem?

 

[Kahr]

The early game in an ARPG with no active skills, no equipment and few health potions fighting melee enemies plays completely different than the mid-late game too. Problem?

It get's gradually more complicated. (in ARPG means)
In the other version there is absolute complexity right at the beginning.

Also "completely different"... What games are we talking about? OP had the Diablo 2 example you know... Can't agree on that.

 

[Haba]

Well, I've sort of implemented it in a way:

Spoiler

Magic has a cost, so every time you cast a spell, you permanently lose a part of the character. The stronger the spell the bigger the cost.

The immediate result is just simple fatigue, but once certain threshold is passed you'll start to notice physical deterioration. It works in stages with simple stat reduction turning into crippled limbs etc.

It also scales, so in the end game you have to sacrifice more to get the same power as you got earlier in the game. Also party-based concept, so you can eventually sacrifice entire characters for those desperate situations.

This is all in a low-magic setting where magic is inherently made extremely powerful.

It creates some balancing issues, as you can guess. Early-game magic is game-breaking, but if you go full retard with it you won't be able to deal with the late game combat encounters. Then again if you are extremely stringy with magic, you'll have horrible time all the way.

No-one is explicitly telling the player he shouldn't waste magic, the idea is to let him come to the conclusion by himself. But once people realize they've irrevocably been wasting their characters away, what's to stop them from restarting the game and trying to min-max encounters?

I also toyed with the idea of making a whole game with the concept. It could work in a short hipster indie game that is designed with replayablity in mind. Curse of aging or something. But you'd need to have a clear goal to reach, and it shouldn't be too far away.

Building a lengthy cRPG with this sort of mechanic is extremely difficult and I am not sure if a lot of people would enjoy it. Often you play RPGs because you like making your characters grow, being forced to give away parts of that hard-earned growth is surprisingly hard.