Thief Gold or Thief 2

[Beastro]

Oh, also not being subtle in Thief 2 also comes to openly hinting at stuff that should be left to be discovered by the player. Like the note in the police station directly pointing out the dumbwaiter as a way to get up to the second floor instead of leaving it to be found out, like the one in the first mission was to safely grab a key.

 

[Dev_Anj]

Oh, and the random female guard is really annoying to see.

Also to clarify one of your points:

I noticed right away how short and uncomplicated the first level in Thief 2 is and I felt bummed out by that.

That's because the first level was trying to be both a tutorial and an "actual" level, which in the end made it compromise on both fronts. They should have just recycled the Keeper's Training from the first game and have the actual game start out with Shipping and Receiving, or maybe a reworked and more interesting Running Interference.

As for general level design, I daresay that Thief: Gold has more variety and tackles more interesting/exotic themes in its levels, but Thief 2 is more polished. You do make some valid points about the storytelling flaws of Thief 2 though.

 

[Beastro]

Oh, and the random female guard is really annoying to see.

Typical pseudo-Medieval Steampunk world with women either pampered bitch aristocrats or timid servants in the first game, then one of the two guards you first run across in the second is one acting like one of the guys ground down by work as a guard. It doesn't fit the setting and I doubt it could be chalked up to Karras having a boner for equal opportunity in the year since the last game (and the VA just adds salt into the wound being so badly convincing as a guard).

 

[commie]

TDP better overall, even if T2 was a bit more refined with more levels built upon the stealth/loot grabbing/multiple path mechanic whereas TDP had a few 'corridor' levels which in contrast were better for the story.

The whole Technology/Nature, order/chaos, natural/supernatural, thing also was more pronounced in the first game and made the setting richer. T2 just seemed a bit bland with barely a handful of supernatural beings, almost no pagans. Yes it's called the 'Metal Age' but even so, LGS took the loot fags too seriously in making most levels variations on the same theme.

There also was terror, scares and a real unsettling feeling of being in places mortal man wasn't meant to go in the first game; quite Lovecraftian. You really felt like you weren't meant to see these places and made the desire to 'sneak' past more palatable and primal, based on the need for survival rather than as a means to just grab more loot.

Don't get me wrong, love both and know all the history about the problems LGS had at the time of T2, so it's quite likely that there may have been plans to balance it more in a Gold version that we never got, but as it stands, TDP just is more complete and that's why it gets my vote.

 

[octavius]

There also was terror, scares and a real unsettling feeling of being in places mortal man wasn't meant to go in the first game; quite Lovecraftian. You really felt like you weren't meant to see these places and made the desire to 'sneak' past more palatable and primal, based on the need for survival rather than as a means to just grab more loot.

Excellent description of some of the later levels, like the final one and Escape.

 

[Riskbreaker]

Typical pseudo-Medieval Steampunk world with women either pampered bitch aristocrats or timid servants in the first game, then one of the two guards you first run across in the second is one acting like one of the guys ground down by work as a guard. It doesn't fit the setting and I doubt it could be chalked up to Karras having a boner for equal opportunity in the year since the last game (and the VA just adds salt into the wound being so badly convincing as a guard).

Much of what happened in The City during that one year is rather hard to swallow, but it indeed CAN be chalked up to Karras and protestants Mechanists. Women were admitted into the Mechanist ranks, up to the highest levels too, as opposed to exclusively male Hammerite priesthood. Mechanist teachings were leading to elimination of qualitative differences between humans. Notice the zombie-like slaves in whom the individual consciousness has been erased, or mechanic servants whom Karras viewed as purer, more perfect creatures than humans.

Mechanists were indeed over the top and hard to swallow, but there was a point to them. That includes the coldness and sterility of many environs from Thief 2.

To cite Guenon

The conclusion that emerges clearly from all this is that uniformity, in order that it may be possible, presupposes beings deprived of all qualities and reduced to nothing more than simple numerical ‘units’; also that no such uniformity is ever in fact realizable, while the result of all the efforts made to realize it, notably in the human domain, can only be to rob beings more or less completely of their proper qualities, thus turning them into something as nearly as possible like mere machines; and machines, the typical product of the modern world, are the very things that represent, in the highest degree attained up till now, the predominance of quantity over quality. From a social viewpoint, ‘democratic’ and ‘egalitarian’ conceptions tend toward exactly the same end, for according to them all individuals are equivalent one to another. This idea carries with it the absurd supposition that everyone is equally well fitted for anything whatsoever, though nature provides no example of any such ‘equality’, for the reasons already given, since it would imply nothing but a complete similitude between individuals...

 

[JarlFrank]

While Thief 2 is much less tight than Thief 1, everything is forgiven because Karras is such a great villain.

 

[tormund]

First thing is the subtle differences in the controls. I went from to the other right away and immediately found Thief 2s controls to be awkward and slower, compared to the originals which felt smoother, though I don't know why.

That sounds wrong. I never noticed any sort of noticeable difference in controls, as far as T2 being somehow clunkier or slower goes. And I think that controls/movement should even be identical nowadays, with NewDark upgrades...

 

[Beastro]

Much of what happened in The City during that one year is rather hard to swallow, but it indeed CAN be chalked up to Karras and protestants Mechanists.

It don't see much of connection with Protestantism in them. The Hammers are very much a meld of Catholicism and Calvinism in my eyes tying together monasticism with a hard work ethic an economic mindset centered around the divine to both better their group and the city as a whole. I rather see the Mechanists as the 19th Century extreme of Protestantism, secular and increasingly misanthropic mindset of today, though the secularism is excluded.

That sounds wrong. I never noticed any sort of noticeable difference in controls, as far as T2 being somehow clunkier or slower goes. And I think that controls/movement should even be identical nowadays, with NewDark upgrades...

I know. It annoyinh me all the more so because I've gotten used to it and that awkward feelings gone now. I'd be tempted to say there is no differences between the two controls, but then wtf did I immediately run into the problem after playing TG, something had to be there to make the first mission and half of Shipping and Receiving tire me out with the difference (had a two week break from the game came back, issue was less and less severe.)?

 

[Kalin]

How is this even a question? Dark Project all the way.

 

[DemonKing]

I never got to play the Thief Gold levels but enjoyed the first game more than the second. Outsmarting human guards felt much better than tricking robots and the weird otherworldliness of some of the level design was great...it was also genuinely scary in places thanks to the sound design and the flimsiness of Garrett in a straight-fight.

Any love for Thief 3 here? I keep meaning to replay it sometime but the real world and my stack of unfinished games keeps getting in the way.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Thief 3: Deadly Shadows isn't a great game like its predecessors, in part due to console limitations, but it's certainly worth playing. It retains the same basic gameplay as the originals, though the levels aren't as well-designed, and has a mainstory focused on the Keepers that brings Garrett's personal storyline to a satisfying conclusion. Also, the Shalebridge Cradle level is spectacularly effective at conveying horror, and although I generally don't like minigames they did an excellent job with the lockpicking minigame that replaces the older, simple lockpick mechanics.

 

[Kalin]

No.

 

[tormund]

Yes.

As said before, it mostly suffered from limitations of original Xbox, as well from butchered version of UE2 that was used by it and Invisible War.
TDS Gold removes loading zones from individual missions, plus it comes bundled other mod that allows for tweaking of AI, physics and so on. Some flaws are still there, like clunky and imprecise movement, or the fact that hub becomes repetitive and pointless padding after a while. Missions don't reach the heights of best from previous games, but they don't reach lows either. When cured of butchering they are consistently good, with some standout gems like Cradle or the mansion of captain's widow. Plus atmosphere is top notch, and visuals still really fucking look good (they make you realize how few modern games use lightning in effective manner).

 

[Great Deceiver]

I actually like T3 a lot and I think it's underrated - there was some console decline there, sure, but it's mostly a genuinely good game. What I really don't like about it are the fucking ridiculous ragdolls - this was that Max Payne 2 era where every game had HAVOK PHYSIXXXXX as a selling point, and the implementation was almost always terrible.

I need to replay it with the mod tormund mentioned, it must be a huge incline to play without the loading sections (Dishonored level butchering actually reminded me of T3 in that way).

I also think Shalebridge Cradle was overrated because that's all people seem to remember about T3, but it was a pretty cool level. I missed the rope arrow but there was some fun to be had with the gauntlets.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

[URL='http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?members/demonking.1302/']DemonKing[/URL]

On the matter of Thief 3, yes, it's good. It's a genuine thief experience. I has almost everything previous games had, mainly the atmospheric things, like sound, voice acting (Stephen Russell), lightning, level design. Most of it's flaws are related to the technical limitations of it's engine.

Thankfully, most of these flaws has been stripped away due to community efforts. To better appreciate Thief 3, you should install the Sneaky Upgrade, the latest version.

It installs the thief 3 gold MOD, which turns missions maps into one big map instead of 2 sections, and adds briefing cutscenes before missions, making it closer to 2 and 3. It also has a slider to reduce the " blueish" fog, making the levels more clear.

It installs the essential JohnP textures, which improves the visuals of the game without taking away the atmosphere like the HD textures released for T1 and T2.

And it installs the Minimalist Project, which I think it has good and bad things. It changes the play-styles and game-play difficulty drastically, but although they say it is to be more like T1 and 2, it is its own thing, which I hate. But also changes the HUD and menu to something very much like the ones in T1/G/2, which is what I love. And it also takes away 3rd person view.

I installed the Minimalist project but recovered from the backups the files that changes game-play/difficulty/play-stiles to the way it is originally in Thief 3. The sneaky upgrade is fully customizable, but I they don't offer to install the minimalist project in a modular way, so you have to manually change everything.

The thing that may be strange for a T 1/2 player is the body awareness, and the different movement/mantling system. It doesn't control like the first and the second game, but one can get used to it. Blackjacking works only when you're standing, and there's some odd animation, because the way it's programmed: originally, you got close to an AI from behind, and Garrett would raise his hand indicating you were close enough to hit the AI. These patches remove this animation, but when you hit the AI, there's some "locking animation" that takes control for 1/2 a sec. It's noticeable but it is not that irritating. Also, rag-doll is hilarious. Another strange thing is the city hub, which is new in a thief game, and acts more as a way to access the different levels. And it "kind of" evolves as the game progresses, and there's a way to improve your reputation by doing things for both hammerites and the pagans. Crouching makes no noise, but guards still can hear you from different types of floors is you're walking or running. Finally, no swimmable water and rope arrows, which is substituted by climbing gloves.

The story is also good and on the level of the previous ones, and it has those hand drawn cutscenes. Instead of pagans and hammerites/mechanists, the focus now is the keeper faction.

The Cradle is great, but also the widow mansion and the museum. Also, the first time you die by the hands of the guards in the hub level you get a "bonus" prison level from which you have to escape.

 

[Great Deceiver]

And it installs the Minimalist Project, which I think it has good and bad things. It changes the play-styles and game-play difficulty drastically, but although they say it is to be more like T1 and 2, it is its own thing, which I hate. But also changes the HUD and menu to something very much like the ones in T1/G/2, which is what I love. And it also takes away 3rd person view.

I installed the Minimalist project but recovered from the backups the files that changes game-play/difficulty/play-stiles to the way it is originally in Thief 3. The sneaky upgrade is fully customizable, but I they don't offer to install the minimalist project in a modular way, so you have to manually change everything.

I've just installed the latest version of Sneaky (1.1.7.1) and it offers a pretty comprehensive set of options in a GUI - including difficulty. Maybe update and see how that goes?

 

[Darth Slaughter]

And it installs the Minimalist Project, which I think it has good and bad things. It changes the play-styles and game-play difficulty drastically, but although they say it is to be more like T1 and 2, it is its own thing, which I hate. But also changes the HUD and menu to something very much like the ones in T1/G/2, which is what I love. And it also takes away 3rd person view.

I installed the Minimalist project but recovered from the backups the files that changes game-play/difficulty/play-stiles to the way it is originally in Thief 3. The sneaky upgrade is fully customizable, but I they don't offer to install the minimalist project in a modular way, so you have to manually change everything.

I've just installed the latest version of Sneaky (1.1.7.1) and it offers a pretty comprehensive set of options in a GUI - including difficulty. Maybe update and see how that goes?

The problem with Minimalist project is that it changes difficulties (easy, normal, hard and expert) to playstyles (thief, cut-purse, assassin, ghost). So, you're forced to do what you're supposed to do in those playstyles, and there's no playstyle that matches Expert in the original thief. Lowering difficulties in the Sneaky upgrade UI just changes AI sensitivity for all different playstyles.

So, if you choose ghost, you can't be detected and you can't blackjack anyone. If you choose thief, you have to collect all the loot. In assassin, there's no restriction against killing, so you're free. There's no playstyle that matches mine: The hardest difficulty and I can knock out AI, but not kill them. Also, difficult sensitivities go high up so AI can detect the smallest movement, the faintest sound, it's kind of frustrating. The changes force you to keep in that playstyle, taking away your freedom of changing it mid-mission. And the gui is amazing, but the minimalist part only has options to activate and deactivate. Minimalist changes core gameplay elements, that may newcomers and veterans off. It changes the economy, but you can play T3 without wasting a single dime in items, except those quest/plot related. So I find those changes unecessary.

But the UI is worth.

1 - The files to bring back the difficult back to normal are:

Screens.sch
UI.sch

These above change the written names of difficulties in the pre-load/debriefing screen

Take the original ones found in "..\Thief - Deadly Shadows\CONTENT\T3\Books\English\String_Tags" and put it in "..\Thief - Deadly Shadows\Installed Mods\Minimalist Project\Content\T3\Books\English\String_Tags" and overwrite the ones there.

T3gamesys.t3u

This one restore gameplay changes minimalist does to their default thief 3 state.

take the original file found in "..\Thief - Deadly Shadows\System" and put in "..\Thief - Deadly Shadows\Installed Mods\Minimalist Project\System" and overwrite.

2 - Now on the folder:

"..\Thief - Deadly Shadows\Installed Mods\Minimalist Project\System"

find default.ini, and in the difficulty tab, change the settings to the original:

[Difficulty]
; -- THIEF 3
;
; AI visual acuity multiplier - how well AIs can see
Difficulty_AIVisual_Mult_Easy=0.9
Difficulty_AIVisual_Mult_Normal=1.0
Difficulty_AIVisual_Mult_Hard=1.15
Difficulty_AIVisual_Mult_Expert=1.2
;
; AI auditory acuity multiplier - how well AIs can hear
Difficulty_AIAudio_Mult_Easy=0.8
Difficulty_AIAudio_Mult_Normal=1.0
Difficulty_AIAudio_Mult_Hard=1.03
Difficulty_AIAudio_Mult_Expert=1.13
;
; AI tactile acuity multiplier - how well AIs can feel
Difficulty_AITactile_Mult_Easy=1.0
Difficulty_AITactile_Mult_Normal=1.0
Difficulty_AITactile_Mult_Hard=1.0
Difficulty_AITactile_Mult_Expert=1.0
;
; AI hitpoints multiplier - all AI starting hitpoints will be scaled by this
Difficulty_AIHitPoints_Mult_Easy=0.75
Difficulty_AIHitPoints_Mult_Normal=1.0
Difficulty_AIHitPoints_Mult_Hard=1.2
Difficulty_AIHitPoints_Mult_Expert=1.3
;
; AI combat speed multiplier - all AI combat animations are scaled by this
Difficulty_AICombatSpeed_Mult_Easy=1.0
Difficulty_AICombatSpeed_Mult_Normal=1.0
Difficulty_AICombatSpeed_Mult_Hard=1.1
Difficulty_AICombatSpeed_Mult_Expert=1.2
;
; AI-to-player damage multiplier - all damage applied to the player by the AI is scaled by this
Difficulty_AIToPlayerDamage_Mult_Easy=0.5
Difficulty_AIToPlayerDamage_Mult_Normal=1.0
Difficulty_AIToPlayerDamage_Mult_Hard=1.25
Difficulty_AIToPlayerDamage_Mult_Expert=1.5

In Minimalist, all different playstyles have the same ultra hard difficulty settings. this changes them to the default behavior for each one. Also, play on expert. It feels more like original thief than the minimalist mod.

3 - Finally, in the folder:

"..\Thief - Deadly Shadows\Installed Mods\Collective Texture Pack\Textures\Content\T3\PCTextures\DynamicallyLoaded"

rename or delete the files gentrainingfeet.dds and pointyb01.dds. These are textures for the foot-prints and pointy arrows in the tutorial level.

It's a little work, but this will bring the default gameplay and difficulties from thief 3, but keeping the UI from minimalist mode.

Actually, you just need to restore the "T3gamesys.t3u" in minimalist project folder and the restore the original difficulty tab in the default.ini in the minimalist folder. The game will play normally as intended, only the menus will show the wrong names in the difficulty tabs.

I highly recommend making these changes if it's going to be a 1st playthrough.

 

[Beastro]

I also think Shalebridge Cradle was overrated because that's all people seem to remember about T3, but it was a pretty cool level. I missed the rope arrow but there was some fun to be had with the gauntlets.

It was scary but not engrossing, your typical haunting orphanage/sanitarium.

The mood of the island mansion was very nice, especially with the seaside feel it did wonderfully. The level that sticks in my mind, however, is the underground Kurshok ruins which really let you get sucked into the climate of despair about a race trapped under the earth for so long they think their prison is all that exists. There's enough there to make an entire game around, and yet they only made one level around it. That's one thing the Thief games always did, even the atypical upfront thief levels are done in nibbles that left people wanting more. IMO, the only setting that was overdone was dealing with the Mechanists.

I've thought for awhile a neat game/show setting would be in such a environment, a world where everything is underground, or an infinite chain of artificial rooms that just go on forever and what that would do to people. Only things I've seen deal with that idea in great detail are the Kurshok undergrounds and that crappy Pandorum movie that worked hard to destroy the evocative setting it set up very well in its beginning.

 

[HoboForEternity]

While Thief 2 is much less tight than Thief 1, everything is forgiven because Karras is such a great villain.

I love the ship and temple level where you can hear his audio logs and meeting. he's great kind of crazy.

his voice can be grating tho

 

[Riskbreaker]

For me, Cradle was more about human tragedy than it was about frights (of which there were aplenty tho, it still has one of most visualy disturbing zombies/ghosts around). Discovering individual stories of those poor children, discovering all the neglect, abuse and inhuman "therapies" practiced by those so-called doctors etc. That is what stuck with me the most. It could've easily been just another example of that abandoned hospital trope that is so common in horror literature/films/games, but it was more than that and it was done with class and restraint.
Seaside mansion was also quite good. For those interested, nicked's Thief 2 FM, "A Pirate's Downfall", is something of a tribute to it, with similar atmosphere and environs.

 

[Beastro]

it still has one of most visualy disturbing zombies/ghosts around)

The series as a whole made supernatural things very scary. Not just the Haunts, but in Thief 2 the treants in the Maw and even Markham's ghost. What they knew was how scary things are when they rush at you very quickly and mated that perfectly with the first person perspective where you need to make distance while hearing something running up on your back, which combined with
Garrett's innate vulnerability pressures you to feel desperate to find safety. Replaying T2 I forgot the treants and they threw me off guard when I kept turning around before I'd die, while I was prepared for Markham, but the long run into the water really strained my nerves as I expected hits to my back at any moment.

Oh, and the first Pagan ghost you see in the forest village, the kid. Your average late 90s character model, but the way it appears suddenly without a sound always gives me shivers before his mother pops up and they converse. All the ghosts stand out unusually and it also shows that the developers knew that some times things standing out in plain view can be as scary as those you can't see,or nothing at all, but you need to choose when they appear very very carefully.

 

[Darth Roxor]

For me, Cradle was more about human tragedy than it was about frights (of which there were aplenty tho, it still has one of most visualy disturbing zombies/ghosts around). Discovering individual stories of those poor children, discovering all the neglect, abuse and inhuman "therapies" practiced by those so-called doctors etc. That is what stuck with me the most. It could've easily been just another example of that abandoned hospital trope that is so common in horror literature/films/games, but it was more than that and it was done with class and restraint.

I think my favourite part of the Cradle is going back to its memory and having to hide from the fucking faceless, voiceless shadowy staff.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

For me, Cradle was more about human tragedy than it was about frights (of which there were aplenty tho, it still has one of most visualy disturbing zombies/ghosts around). Discovering individual stories of those poor children, discovering all the neglect, abuse and inhuman "therapies" practiced by those so-called doctors etc. That is what stuck with me the most. It could've easily been just another example of that abandoned hospital trope that is so common in horror literature/films/games, but it was more than that and it was done with class and restraint.

I think my favourite part of the Cradle is going back to its memory and having to hide from the fucking faceless, voiceless shadowy staff.

The best part of it to me is the beginning. It's almost pitch black darkness. Garrett likes shadows, but it's too dark even for him. Sound design helps a lot. You're always listening ambient sounds that makes you feel a presence in the place. Then you turn on the generator, and suddenly you wake the cradle. You were afraid of the dark, now you are vulnerable in the light and who knows what did you bring back with it?

Then, we reach the stairs to the attic. My first play through I had to stop right there... or I would have a heart attack...

 

[Beastro]

1 - The files to bring back the difficult back to normal are:

Screens.sch
UI.sch

These above change the written names of difficulties in the pre-load/debriefing screen

Take the original ones found in "..\Thief - Deadly Shadows\CONTENT\T3\Books\English\String_Tags" and put it in "..\Thief - Deadly Shadows\Installed Mods\Minimalist Project\Content\T3\Books\English\String_Tags" and overwrite the ones there.

T3gamesys.t3u

Just got done with T2 and tried doing what to recommend in your post going into T3 with the mod, but I'm not seeing an Installed Mods folder. Is it one you made yourself when installing the mod or should it be created by default when installing it?