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On strongholds

himmy

Arcane
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Messages
1,150
Location
New Europe
This is a minor gripe that I have, but so many recent games, particularly of the Kickstarter lot, do it that I need to ask.

Why is this whole thing about having a stronghold/base/homestead/etc such a staple in recent RPGs? I mean, it was OK back when there were mods for Morrowind that offered you a house in which to put all your shit, but it was pretty much unnecessary. On each of my playthroughs some random house in Balmora would become this. It was very organic. You had a silt strider and the Mages Guild there for travel, all three major guilds, plenty of traders, healers and trainers and you could just grab whatever house you wanted if you killed the people inside and there were even a few options where you didn't have to kill anybody. This applies to various other games.

In any case, it was OK to have a place to dump stuff that you might need later and to use a bed, but I never considered having a place of my own. What would I even do there? Just hang out and pretend I'm one of the townsfolk? And it seems that around that time it became mandatory for every RPG to make a big show of offering a quest where you can buy/build a house and invest in all sorts of extra feature, most of which were purely cosmetic.

Not just that, if you take a minute to delve in the madhouse that is the Kickstarter comment section you'll see people rabidly asking for such a feature. And devs offering it on stretch-goals like it's some sort of amazing feature that everyone was desperate to have.

Don't get me wrong, Sims is a great game to play when you're bored, but if I want to play Sims, I'll play Sims, not pretend to do so while playing some other game.

I almost never do the house quest in games except if it seems to have a cool story behind it, which it very rarely does. Some games, Baldur's Gate 2 in particular made it bearable by building an entire class-specific quest behind it. That was OK. But even there, I was doing the quest for the sake of the quest and then never visiting the place again.

I just don't get it. Do other people have radically different playstyles than mine? Is there something I just don't get? Is it some sort of fantasy meant to appeal to the millennial generation that just can't afford to own a house IRL? What the hell am I missing?
 
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
People enjoy things that they can call 'theirs' a place in that world where they can call 'home', that's not everybody though. That's why things like bioware romance exist as well, because some people like to associate with the characters that are in the world that the developers created (the press x to fuck button is another thing though). Some people play these games to escape their reality and get entrenched in some fantasy world.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,661
Amusingly, this topic comes up a lot with the Battle Brothers community so I've seen tons of discussion on it.

The stronghold concept has never really resonated with me, but some people like being 'grounded' somewhere or playing a little Sims or business-management-lite. I think PoE so badly implemented the stronghold idea that perhaps some are having a kneejerk "ah fuck not again" reaction to more iterations.

But you have to really separate the sort of 'base' concepts because they're not all alike. Some are just "this is a place store all your shit." Like Skyrim's houses which seems to have expanded in Fallout 4 so you can build your own stuff (I think, I haven't actually played it).

Other 'bases' are more akin to a "base of operations" where you send out inane missions that are often counter to the overall hero narrative. Even Blizzard dedicated an entire expansion to the latter "stronghold" concept, but because it was so detached and boring it literally sunk the entire expansion. Now if the devs of WoW, which is a big casino addiction factory, can't get the functionality of a stronghold down well enough to make it fun, then the likelihood of it being fun as an accessory to a Kickstarted game seems pretty low.
 

Neki

Scholar
Joined
Jul 30, 2016
Messages
145
I never went to the house in VMTB, I only discovered that you get more quests by the computer by the time i tried to fuck with Heather.Then i was going there after 2 or 3 missions it really felt like a strong hold instead of just a place i gonna buy take a look around then never go back .

Games like Morrowind or F:NV where you can do your stuff anywhere don't really need that kind of stuff, if a house is not gonna be unique there is little to no reason to implement(unless you wanna do some 3x7r3m3 LARPING)
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jun 21, 2015
Messages
1,866,227
Location
Third World
I never went to the house in VMTB, I only discovered that you get more quests by the computer by the time i tried to fuck with Heather.Then i was going there after 2 or 3 missions it really felt like a strong hold instead of just a place i gonna buy take a look around then never go back .
That's one game where it makes sense and if it was a better adaptation would have been a bigger deal.
 

yes plz

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,158
Pathfinder: Wrath
While it did most other things mediocrely, Neverwinter Nights 2 did the whole stronghold thing decently with Crossroad Keep. It had management elements to it, a good deal of quests, and actually tied into the main narrative in such a way that upgrading it was worthwhile. The one in Dragon Age: Awakening was also well done in a similar fashion as Crossroad Keep (especially considering it was part of an expansion).
 

himmy

Arcane
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Messages
1,150
Location
New Europe
Aside from Pillars, what other games do you feel tacked on a player Stronghold out of a checklist?


The homestead in D:OS seemed very out of sync with the rest of the game. It was really weird to have the usual "common murder mystery ---> magic conspiracy ---> cosmic conspiracy" plot model interrupted just a few hours into the game by having a huge fucking pocket plane at the end of the universe, inhabited by immortal being that you could visit at any time. It was pretty obvious that they took what could have been a cool plot point and changed it into a house where you can store shit and but high-level gear.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
The best "stronghold" I've ever seen in a game was the Bathing Beauties Luxury Suite mod for Skyrim. It's a compact player house with plenty of storage space and crafting workstations, and it's also full of thematically appropriate naked ladies.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
1,865,419
While it did most other things mediocrely, Neverwinter Nights 2 did the whole stronghold thing decently with Crossroad Keep. It had management elements to it, a good deal of quests, and actually tied into the main narrative in such a way that upgrading it was worthwhile.

Yeah, and don't forget the little details with special NPCs, etc. It was awesome. NWN2 is a shame, really. You have some cool quests and NPCs mixed with lame story and clichés. Nobody appreciates the good parts because of the rest.

Amusingly, this topic comes up a lot with the Battle Brothers community so I've seen tons of discussion on it. The stronghold concept has never really resonated with me, but some people like being 'grounded' somewhere or playing a little Sims or business-management-lite.

People can enjoy a cRPG for many reasons (good story, tactical elements, exploration, etc.), but one recurrent theme is the juvenile thirst for power. Level ups with new abilities and powerful items are there to make you feel more powerful as you level up. The stronghold in cRPGs is just a natural extension of this juvenile eagerness for power: it is there not for you to play house like in Sims, but so that you can feel like a king of your own castle. You have trophies and land just attest your deeds and achievements. It is pure juvenile stuff, but then again cRPGs in general are juvenile to the core.
 
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Xathrodox86

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
760
Location
Nuln's labyrinth
I like to have "my place" in an RPG, but it needs to be done right. After all, the game should not revolve around chosing furniture and kitchen utensils (looking at you Fallout and Skyrim). A house should be just a place, where you can catch your breath for a short wile, check your messages and manage your inventory, like in Deus Ex or Bloodlines.
 

Neanderthal

Arcane
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
3,626
Location
Granbretan
I thought Div Div did this well, all shit in world to make your own homebase, but entirely up to you whether you wanted to do it. One o huge positives about havin a well simulated world, drop one o them pyramids somewhere, drop a few chests an such wi backup gear an supplies, nearby bed, portal, shops an you've got a good retreat for restin an shit. Do think theres a need for a holdin area in most games that have a fairly well simulated setting, but stronghold usually seems either a bit excessive or not explored in half enough detail.

End o day somewhere to rest an store shit is all I need, I can make do wi a bag of holding an a bedroll. Gis a reason to use Inns an hotels as a welcome break an all.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
29,228
It's just rpgs are shit about chosen ones, who save worlds. Stronghold thing makes more sense, if your objectives more grounded. Castle and status need to be main goal, not boring side quest.
 
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Sacred82

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Jun 7, 2013
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2,957
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Free Village
logically, a stronghold should lock you down. Ironically, in a lot of games it increases your mobility (by working e.g. as a stash). A stronghold should be at the center of the game, not some tacked-on afterthought. This is what I thought when I heard about the base in WL3 takin a bigger role - do it right, let 2/3 of the game play in and around the stronghold.
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
29,683
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About 8 meters beneath sea level.
Strongholds done right are awesome. A memorable place that you have to work for to take over and then has an actual impact on further plot and gameplay. The implementation in gaming however usually is pretty much fail. I admit that BG2 did some real effort on this. Other than that I really can't remember any good ones with the mayority being glorified item stashes. Meh.

But let's be honest. The sky is the limit as far as possibilities go. From upgrading a ruin into a fortress to finding a good safe resting place as a vampire to a capsule hotel in a cyberpunk setting or a bloody flying steampunk airship or a pocket dimension hidden in a marble. And that's just some places. Uses could be anything from recieving foreign dignitaries, sorting out staff problems, having something of your stolen, lending help to your serfs or fending off an attack or withstanding a siege. For a start. Some bloody creativity would go a long way. Spending x gold to get x temporary stat increase when you rest is not what I am looking for.
 

vonAchdorf

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
13,465
Strongholds bore me because they are often just a quickbar to access companions, crafting stations and useless crap you store there for now reason and maybe quests.
 

Naveen

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
1,115
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Doll's houses. You need to get a bit of that elusive women gamer demographic.

It's probably the success of BG2, though. Devs try to copy everything (like romances) from a successful game in hopes of hitting the jackpot. It's a pity that they don't try to copy the original source, which was the pen & paper D&D stronghold, that place characters got when they reached level... 10? I think. Then they started earning taxes, and they were so famous and powerful that followers came from all over the land to join the PC's retinue. If you character had not retired by then, then the game essentially became a new and different one.
 

skyst

Augur
Joined
Jul 26, 2010
Messages
294
Location
Philadelphia, PA
I've always made my own strongholds in RPGs when the option is viable, be it a derelict house in Morrowind or even just a preferred town in Fallout. I like to keep my character's inventory neat and relatively empty but love hoarding shit like unique items and random collectables, like some unknowable critic is going to take my save file and assess my collection of cool shit from the game world. So, I guess the only real appeal for me is a safe spot to geek out on inventory management, entirely dependent on the game.

To a lesser extent, I see it as an extension or, if done correctly, improvement of the town aspect of an RPG. Rolling into town, be it the first time of 20th, is a great feeling. As can be the shift of gameplay from combat to dialogues. You don't necessarily have to be the lord of the manor, the inquisitor, Shepherd, the dragonborn or anything, but something to give you a tie to the place helps. Like becoming a member of the BoS makes entering their bunkers more meaningful than passing through Junktown and vending some loot to MacGyver
 

pippin

Guest
A stronghold should only be there if it serves a logical purpose when it comes to gameplay. It has to be more than a glorified spreadsheet. An example of this done right comes from a game that's really shit, but it introduced a change which now I deeply miss in the rest of the franchise: The Bureau, that shitty XCOM shooter, allowed you to send your rookies into secondary missions, which would allow them to level up and not be scrubs. If your good soldiers are killed, you don't have to resort to meatshields anymore, since you had your backup.
 

baturinsky

Arcane
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
5,526
Location
Russia
My problem with strongholds is that you are usualy always on the road, and homebase is somewhere out there. Strongholds should be portable - a pocket plan (like BG2), teleport (like ToME4) or some flying/spaceship.
 

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