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Why do many RPG fans hate crafting?

Infinitron

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I'm not the biggest fan of it myself, and I've got a number of theories on the topic, but let's try to examine this widely held prejudice.

I will say one thing: I'm not convinced by arguments like the often-seem claim that "I don't like crafting because it makes finding loot in the world feel useless!". Arguments like that sound to me more like rationalizations for why crafting shouldn't be in the game than a genuine reason for why you don't enjoy using it when it is there. If you don't like crafting, you're not going to use it, so it wouldn't make the loot feel useless to you.

So, bonus points for theories that actually examine the act of crafting and explain what's wrong with it.
 

oldmanpaco

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1) If I want to be a blacksmith I'll KS a blacksmith simulator.
2) Crafting typically makes the game to easy because devs balance for standard items. Or the crafted items serve no purpose because they are worse than the items you find in game.
3) The best crafting is in games like BG2 where you find shit all over the place and bring it to an expert to put together.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Because picking up 300 Elderflower Roots on your travels just makes for a backpack with 300 Elderflower Roots in it. Whatever potion it was supposed to make is likely not needed or in good supply anyway. Because you end up with a backpack full of this shit not knowing if it's going to be of any use for the whole game which, if its limited inventory, is just fucking horrible, if it's not limited inventory then it's just time wasting, you might as well make every object in the game collectable because, why not. If the game only provides potions via crafting then it's stealing life from the looting and shopping aspect.
 

Mozg

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Usually not accounted for in balancing, usually has poor quality kludged interfaces, usually encourages masochistic hoarding (often comorbid with those bad interfaces), it's usually a terrible compound of pandering to simulation-dorks with a bland, gamey anti-simulation (tink tink poof your one-size-fits-all renaissance full plate armor is done instantly in the crafting interface).

Crafting systems are generally at their best when they're combined with simmy survival gameplay. Failing that, if you have a well-balanced and deep system it's cool when crafting lets you do heavy customization while stuff you find by exploring the gameworld generally has greater raw power (AoD mostly does this, although at the very end crafted weapons are straightforwardly better than anything findable).
 

Mustawd

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Crafting to me has become a check the box type of feature that devs include in the hopes of a Minecraft effect.
 

Bleed the Man

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In my opinion, it adds a layer of complexity that isn't really needed, and ends up as padding as a result.

When I'm exploring and find ingredients and diagrams to craft weapons instead of the weapons themselves, I just get frustrated. For example, looking for the witcher gear in Witcher 3 was painful for me, and I ended up ignoring it unless I stumble upon them by accident. Going into treasure hunts only to find the means to create the treasure instead of the treasure itself is unrewarding, as I most likely don't have the means yet to craft the reward I just got, and just adds busywork to end with the same result. Lower the rewards so that you can cram more content without really expanding on the rewards.

Opening a chest with crafting ingredients it's basically this:

latest


"It's a key."
"No! Much more better! It is a drawing of a key."
 

Infinitron

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Here's a piece of my theory of crafting. My apologies for any pretentiousness.

Crafting is an an unwanted/unexpected expansion of the scope of character building. What is crafting, when it comes down to it? It's a form of character building. You level up, you get a skill point, you spend that point to take a skill that make your character more powerful in some way. Crafting works similarly. You get crafting ingredients, you spend them to make an item that makes you more powerful in some way. Why is one of these accepted while the other is rejected?

Maybe it's because crafting is unstructured and unfocused. The game doesn't give you a routine time and place where You Must Craft (like the level up screen for skills). It's a fuzzy system that floats around in the fringes of the game, not having a definite place.
 
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oldmanpaco

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We need a pretentious button.

But I get what you are trying to say. Its a system outside of the game unless you are playing some sort of survival type game specifically designed with crafting as a core element. Otherwise it feels mostly tacked on for shits and giggles and KS stretch goals.
 

Suicidal

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Don't really care about crafting but I love well-made enchanting systems. And not just "insert a rune into an empty slot to give your sword +2 poison damage" shit, that is boring. I mean systems that let you really customize your existing items, like adding powerful unique effects, transferring stats from one item to another, ability to change most characteristics of any given item, etc. Unfortunately this kind of thing is very rare.
 

undecaf

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I don't hate crafting, but very often - at least these days - it's not really used for anything substantially interesting which, I guess, is partly due to the amount of patently useless stuff that exists for the sake of being able to creat it. It seems to lack any real focus and substance and invests instead on the freedom of tinkering. Or something.
 

Ellef

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It's busywork that removes the magic of item discovery. Suddenly the world feels much more mundane when the sword of Damocles you won off a demon battle is replaced by gathering 300 cloacas and iron bars.
 

Infinitron

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We need a pretentious button.

But I get what you are trying to say. Its a system outside of the game unless you are playing some sort of survival type game specifically designed with crafting as a core element. Otherwise it feels mostly tacked on for shits and giggles and KS stretch goals.

Right, but that raises a question. Why is "feeling tacked on" a reason for finding crafting to be so awful that many people are disgusted at the mere mention of it? Is "tacked on" synonymous with "unfun"?

My feeling is that hardcore RPG players tend to approach game systems as a kind of aggressive optimization problem. So when they encounter a system where you can't make a quick and easy cost-benefit calculation as to when to use it and whether it's even worth bothering with, it becomes a constant niggling annoyance for them.

Your typical RPG crafting system fits that description to a high degree. I think if you looked at other systems and mechanics in RPGs, you might find other things that make hardcore RPG players feel a similar way as crafting does (for example, I think the phenomenon of potion hoarding comes from a similar place), but probably none to the same degree. It's like a perfect storm of powergamer unease.

Casuals, on the other hand, don't give a shit. They're not paying that much attention and just craft whenever they feel like it.
 

Delterius

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Think about it this way. The gold standard for laziness in RPGs is the quest that asks you Collect 10/10 items or Kill 25/25 minions. This sort of design sends ripples through the game that makes everything banal in its wake. I need not remember how much Dragon Age: Inquisition would be improved if it outright cut all of such generic quests. That said, what are most Crafting systems but a massified way to introduce the constant need to collect a certain number of perfectly generic items in a way similar to those quests?

So while the idea isn't bad by itself, I think Crafting needs something more. It must reinforce the themes of the game you are playing. Otherwise its just pointless busywork.

Because first of all, let's face the fact that this isn't Minecraft. We aren't playing a game that centers around Crafting. The very act of Crafting some item is underwhelming by itself. You get a few components, you press a button and you get whatever it is you wanted. You can't built your own base the way you designed it as if its Heaven and Hearth.

What you can do in the best RPGs is build your own character the way you designed and see how the world reacts to that. Crafting is one competing element out of many, ranging from combat prowess to talky skills. Just building your character is the best 'Crafting' system an RPG can possibly focus on. So I'd say the answer to Crafting isn't something like Neverwinter Nights 2 did - which is to add complexity for its own sake - but rather to give it meaning in the greater scheme of things.

So, if you are playing a post-apocalyptic story of survival, then Crafting can be very interesting indeed. Provided there's some resource management involved. Even that Last of Us zombie game approached things that way.

Most RPGs aren't willing to do that. Which is only sensible, the genre is mostly about some form of dungeon delving and adventuring. And one look at the Elder Scrolls series shows how Crafting can break the game and remove the incentive to look for unique artifacts across the world.

But even if Crafting does not necessarily displace Looting, the precedence of the latter limits how much developers are willing to do with such a system. One way around it is to tie one with the other: Monster Hunter is mostly about killing giant varied monsters and taking their body parts to make yourself new weapons and armor that actually looks like it came off your prey. And that's really cool.

Another way to integrate Crafting is to make it a staple of the adventure. You make potions, weapons and food for the trip. This sort of thing can be seen in a variety of games from World of Warcraft to Pillars of Eternity. On MMOs, this can be justified as each player becomes part of an economic network. This is an important trait. Again, Crafting for its own sake is pointless busywork until it gains some greater meaning in the game. An upcoming sandbox MMOs like Albion seems centered around community driven crafting. Not everyone is going to be an adventurer, many will instead seek to become the greatest craftsman of a given specialization.

On Pillars, I felt, the Crafting system felt like a nearly cosmetic part of the game. Like finding traps, crafting is a secondary skill that people are free to use or not. Its not a dealbreaker in any adventure. Sure, the benefits are useful on something like the highest difficulty, but that's enemy stat bloat mode. In games such as Pillars, where the story and the characters you make are so focused on High Adventuring and killing orcses, I feel Crafting is best served by moments such as building the Flail of the Ages in Baldur's Gate 2. Or that spear in PoE's spider ruins which I can't recall much about.

Opposite to the way Pillars handled things I'd raise Arcanum. There, techie characters are all about finding blueprints and putting them to good use. Its a barely finished game where Magic easily outclasses technology but people still love playing with it because of the way it all integrates well with the awesome setting, the plot and due to how Crafting is an integral part of the character.
 
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IHaveHugeNick

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Crafting is busywork that serves no purpose other than to waste my time. There's 0 challenge in looting and hoarding shit. That, and farming all the ingredients and then theorycrafting the most optimized modifiers usually takes like twice more time than improved items will eventually save you in combat. It's really just a pointless feature alltogether. I liked PoE's crafting though, but that's because with unlimited inventory and AOE looting they removed most of the busywork.
 

octavius

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My characters are adventurers, not craftsmen. They use the loot they aquire to pay craftsmen for their services if they need things crafted, just like they pay for food instead of living as peasants.
It can be fun if it's some kind of upgrade system, though, like in Might&Magic 7.
 

skyst

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The absolute worst thing that crafting has done in some games is require us to use experience/talent points/whatevers to be proficient at it.
 

Somberlain

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Crafting that only happens occasionally and produces tangible benefits is great and adds to the game, like bringing artifact pieces to Cromwell or creating rod & spring upgrades in Jagged Alliance 2. These days, hearing that a game features crafting as a mechanic causes Codexers to roll their eyes because it conjures up images of picking up trash from the floor every 5 seconds and systems that force or incentivize the use of some intrusive crafting interface all the time.
 

Mustawd

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On MMOs, this can be justified as each player becomes part of an economic network. This is an important trait. Again, Crafting for its own sake is pointless busywork until it gains some greater meaning in the game. An upcoming sandbox MMOs like Albion seems centered around community driven crafting. Not everyone is going to be an adventurer, many will instead seek to become the greatest craftsman of a given specialization.

This is mainly why I like crafting in MMOs but absolutely despise it in single player games. With an MMO, I'm putting in time to grind away and crafting, which I enjoy as a mundane activity, and then am rewarded when these skills are needed by the community. In a single player game it feels like a waste of my time.
 

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