1eyedking VTMB Unofficial Patch Butthurt Thread

[Wesp5]

Why not make an optional ending where Camarilla, Sabbat, Anarchs and Kuei-jin become friends and live on happily ever after? I mean anybody not liking it could just ignore it all!

Well, if it would make sense in the WoD, why not ? Again, nobody here has me convinced yet that the Gimble alternative is unreasonable in the setting of the game! Your arguments are all about it being meta-gaming and too convenient...

 

[makiavelli747]

Well, if it would make sense in the WoD, why not ? Again, nobody here has me convinced yet that the Gimble alternative is unreasonable in the setting of the game!

No one can do that...

 

[Lujo]

No one can do that...

wesp5, Is there a way to get an actual accurate changelog of your "basic" patch? But a proper one, so I can go through it bit by bit and remove stuff that's not actual bugfixes but stuff you made decisions on?

I wouldn't even distribute that, I just don't want to pay for the steam version, don't mind some bugfixes, but really find no cause to play with most other things you've done to the game.

 

[Wesp5]

No one can do that...

Please try again then! The only reasonable objections that were not meta-gaming (due to knowledge of how convenient it is) were that Gimble would not leave you alone in his lair. But 1) he is so mad he actually cut his own hand off and 2) he let you roam freely in his lair already and 3) I could easily turn the Persuasion line into Dominate or Dementation and that would fix this problem. If I will stick with removing that alternative it would only be because people might miss the cool fight with him, which is kind of meta-gaming itself...

 

[Wesp5]

1) The whole Mitnick and Gary thing is unadvisable and the gains outwieght the risks.

You still don't get it! These "new" quests are in the plus patch since 2008 and now I should remove them because you somehow managed to mess up your setup from automatic-dialogue-start-bug to a weird mix up of 9.5 basic files and 9.6 plus files?

2) Absolutely check what's supposed to trigger the end ot the Hollywood restaurant critic quest, and what's supposed to trigger Isac's reward state. Not what command, you know that allready, but where in the game and when is that supposed to be triggered.

Again, I already posted this here. One of these was fixed by Dan Upright over ten years ago and works for basically everyone except yourself! Probably because you switched Python mid game. And you still haven't posted your console errors here...

5) BIG ONE: I took the armor from Heather and never told her to stay inside, and she somehow survived.

And another unique bug that is probably due to the Python switch...

ALSO: I had the option to ask Mercurio about all his bonus stuff at the same time or something, because he had everything ever in stock the first time I went to talk to him. This certainly wasn't inteded by the developers.

And another one...

Way it was, as cool and creepy as this place is when you're not a Nosferatu, it comes completely out of nowhere.

You mean like Grout's Mansion, the sewers below Hollywood and basically everything outside the main hubs?

I mean, OK, sure, but, um, why isn't there an option at the end game, to decide that most of the second half of the game is basically Gary jerking you around and you get the option to ignore LaCroix and Ming and go strangle Gary?

Didn't you notice that from the start of the game every older vampire is jerking you around and makes you do their dirty work? Jeanette, Therese, Tung, LaCroix, Isaac, Gary. That's basically the heart of the WoD vampire world!

Again, whoever made this is not a good level designer...

The level design was more or less defined by models that Troika left in the game files!

On the purely technical level that place is in no way clear about where you're supposed to go, and it is very difficult to determine where you are beign shot from at any particular point. I would very much appreciate an ability to disable it...

Besides that this level is much clearer than the rest of the hotel with it's narrow maze of rooms and passages, you can just walk to the door opposite with the nice lantern shining the way and the exit sign over the door and skip it completely!

Something about the layout of the place was also wrong somehow, like it can't possibly reasonably be built like that.

Yeah, please visit the real world Bradbury Building once you are in LA then. Or just watch the "Bladerunner" movie...

6) I seem to have missed the Library quest somehow, which I suppose cuts you off from the Sabath ending?

You can't really miss that in a normal game, but of course the Python switch would explain that too.

 

[Lujo]

No one can do that...

Please try again then! The only reasonable objections that were not meta-gaming (due to knowledge of how convenient it is) were that Gimble would not leave you alone in his lair. But 1) he is so mad he actually cut his own hand off and 2) he let you roam freely in his lair already and 3) I could easily turn the Persuasion line into Dominate or Dementation and that would fix this problem. If I will stick with removing that alternative it would only be because people might miss the cool fight, which is kind of meta-gaming itself...

Wesp, you don't seem to understand what "metagaming" means. You're confusing "powergaming" and "design" and lumping it into one word.

You're also using logic that doesn't apply in the situation. Gimble is not a real thing. It's a bunch of pixels and commands in the game. You're not a player, you're a designer, and you can't use player, roleplayer or random game fanboy logic. Guys who designed the game didn't.

The sequence that involves him is not meant to interact with the sequence around the blood bank. They work as separate set-peices. You made them interact, which is bizzare to begin with because it goes against the design of those sequences (the "lily rescue sequence" and the "looking for the guy gimble kidnapped" sequence).

Then you made them interact in a way which is completely messed up (optimal result of the lily sequence is also the optimal result of the gimble sequence). This is appealing to powergamers who generally don't understand anyting but "most bonuses" and "most convenient". It's almost like a cheatcode.

Imagine if these were late game encounters. Imagine if you could conveniently "solve" the Ming Xao problem by sending her to Vandal. You walk into the temple, get to Ming Xao and tell her some bullshit thing about going to the blood bank. And she drops everything and goes. AND you get the same experience as if you fought and killed her. It doesn't matter that Gimble is the first named boss you meet, the principle is the same. If you don't understand this - then it's likely noone can explain it to you. You're not looking for sane and objective and professional reasons, you might do the right thing by accident if someone says something that you randomly interpret in some way that makes you do the right thing but god along knows what you want to hear.

In case it's just a matter of explaining the craft side of it...

If this isn't enough for you to slap your forehead and go "omg what was I thinking" then we have a problem. If this doesn't make it clear to you than you're not looking for a sensible explanation, or you don't realize the funcition of Gimble.

Maybe explaining the function of Vandal woudl help, but if you can't think of story (game) elements in terms of function then you really shouldn't be designing a game, because that's how these things work. Right let's try that:

Lily quest is designed to give you a choice to do something that looks like you're doing good - you're seemingly rescuing a young girl. However, the first thing the girl does is kill someone in front of your eyes. Yes, he was an asshole, but she's basically a wild animal and obviously dangerous. (You gave humanity for this - this is wrong, it's very specifically supposed to be ambiguous). Then Vandal walks in and what he does is essentially a TUTORIAL on how world of darkness works. You can't be Jesus without concequence. The concequence is no blood for you unless you bring another victim.

That is what makes that whole quest memorable, as opposed to a million similar ones in a million games - here, in VtmB you do something that looks good and you pay for it. Yes you can talk your way out of it and stuff, but, it's your punishment for being altruistic. That's how it works. The intended victim is not any named character but an anonymous and unsuspecting innocent. You giving the option to sent Patty down there is a nice kind of reward for a character who struggled with the dillema that long (all the way into the second act). Being able to lure the director Pisha wants dead there (Milligan?) would also be a nice "I had no choice" situation. And it shouldn't award XP - you have a very good reason to get Vandal to sell you blood again, you don't need to motivate anyone with XP.

But Gimble is a bossfight, and also one who you might run into before you get the chance to get him to Vandal. That's what he was designed to be, and his encounter is designed to have a madman rushing you after you descend for an uncomfortably long while into a progressively more creepy basement. You are meant to fight him (to solve his quest), not put it off until you have completed Lily's quest to maximize your efficiency ("powergaming").

And on top of it all - the only way for Gimble to rush off like he does now would be to dominate or dementate him, as you said, rather than persuade. But the player really doesn't have a reason to do that. Yes, Gimble might be creepy, but you really don't have the foreknowledge and it looks really strange that you would send HIM to Vandal - why not Knox, why not Killpatrick, why not Dr. Malcolm, if you can see a person for the first time and send them to the blood bank?

It doesn't work on so many levels.

---

But anyway, do what you want. Next time I want to play the game I'll see about pruning the nonsense out of it first and that's that. Enough from me.

 

[Wesp5]

How, how did it happen that you ended up being linked to something I payed money for?

Because everything you complain about is not included in the basic patch bundled with the GOG version!

...every place that was meant to force you into a choice was changed to remove the choice.

Oh, so would have liked the game better as a linear experience like the Call of Duty series? Please complain to Troika, because they came up with several choices for pretty much everything until they ran out of time from Chinatown on to the endgame.

Either kill zombies or find a hooker for Romero - Now you get to get XP for both. Probably because "it's realistic".

No because XP points come from "experience" which you gain. You can skip all side quest if you want to have less XP!

Those people are idiots and what you should do, if you were a smart man, is make a note of who is arguing for it, write their names down, and never listent to anything they have to say about anything again.

Yeah, I pretty much already have the first name on that list and it's Lujo.

 

[Wesp5]

I'm digging through the dialogue sound files but can't find him. What's his name again?

It's actually Andrei himself, the sound file is in the pack000.vpk archive and called Character\Boss\Andrei\Take2.wav. In the first versions of the library map I used Andrei as the boss there, but people didn't like it as 1) the voice is too different and 2) this spoiled the surprise of seeing him again in the Hallowbrook hotel...

 

[Wesp5]

If someone's doing something with RPG's and he's not here, he's not doing it right.

Wow, is this the common delusion of the people on RPG Codex or only yours?

And if you told him not to come here, you're not his friend. Crawl back to your cesspit.

I can't remember Acleacius or anyone else telling me not to come here. I have been here many years ago already, but as this site has many games to talk about, I only come by if I become aware that Bloodlines is discussed.

This would be much easier to believe if it didn't happen to give the most XP out of all solutions to the Vandal problem.

You get exactly the same 2 XP when bringing someone to Vandal, Gimble is no difference, only more work to get to him.

I don't see wesp getting any bad advice on codex.

Yes? I think your advice is to basically scrap every change done since 2008 or older because you messed your game up and don't like some plus changes. But on the other hand you don't want to play the basic patch because you like those extra XP yourself...

Because I'm so right on the subject that not listening to me on this is actively stupid.

Uh, I don't think I need to answer anything to that !

 

[vmar]

I've never seen someone act so goddamn autistic over a fucking optional quest solution in an optional patch.

Wesp, anytime you feel like adding non combat solutions to this game in the plus patch, please do so. I can't count how many times I've quit playing in Chinatown because of all the boring combat.

 

[Wesp5]

Wesp, you don't seem to understand what "metagaming" means. You're confusing "powergaming" and "design" and lumping it into one word.

No. Meta-gaming to me is arguing with something you as player know which your character can't know. In the Gimble case you and Acleacius do exactly this: he knows Gimble is evil and want's an alternative, you know you will fight him and don't want this cut. Your character wouldn't know either of these explanations and therefore this is pure meta-gaming!

The sequence that involves him is not meant to interact with the sequence around the blood bank.

Says who? Troika actually did the same with Patty, you can send her to Pisha because it just makes sense!

This is appealing to powergamers who generally don't understand anyting but "most bonuses" and "most convenient".

"Powergaming" because you get one XP without a fight? Tell that to the quest designer of the Serial Killer plot!

The concequence is no blood for you unless you bring another victim.

No. You can Persuade, Intimidate, Dominate or Dementate Vandal (level 1 only in both cases) and even pay him off.

The intended victim is not any named character but an anonymous and unsuspecting innocent.

Exactly, no choice there whatsoever. Typical for a Toika game? I didn't play anything from them except Bloodlines.

That's what he was designed to be, and his encounter is designed to have a madman rushing you after you descend for an uncomfortably long while into a progressively more creepy basement.

And that is the only thing I agree with and why I will probably remove that option anyway. It's cutting content which I don't like, but then this is meta-gaming too...

 

[Storyfag]

Wesp5
I dig the Sabbath ending. It is barebones, of course, but sufficient The restored inside of Hallwobroock Hotel definitely stands out and is very cool! Would be neat if you could add the player character standing by Andrei's side in the final sequence, as well as have Andrei look at LaCroix when he says "you have no idea how insignificant you are".

Truth be told, a lore-friendly Sabbath ending would probably feature somebody opening the sarcophagus. The Sabbath, after all, is all about destroying/devouring the Ancients. But of course a more lore-friendly plotline would probably feature any random Vampire examining the sarcophagus with Auspex and determining that, in fact, no Antediluvian is slumbering inside it. So let us not be picky.

I found one element jarring. The final exchange between the player and Andrei:

Player: One more thing, why are you so taciturn tonight?
Andrei: I do not know.

Makes Andrei sound really derpy. I believe the dialogue would be better without this final section.

Anyway, how far can you modify various voice files? Is it possible to include your own? Can you record parts of Andrei's speech and mash up new files from that? Something along the lines of "My minions. Gouge out the eyes of the Camarilla. Here." could start a Nosferatu hunt in the Hollowbroock Hotel and so on.

 

[Fenris 2.0]

Finished a Game with the 9.6 Beta Patch yesterday, Plus Version, got two Bugs wich a quick Reload or Restart couldn't fix:
1. In the "Surf's up" Quest at the Beach House the Attack Dog did still Damage after I killled it - every time when I walked across it's Corpse.
2. The Firearms Skill 5 Book vanished somewhere between handing in the Monestary Quest by the Prince and the Hallowbrook Hotel. When I wanted to use it after killing Andrej it was gone. I gave Becket the Book about Vampires, but didn't gave the Prince Bach's Journal. Was no Problem, I used the Console to raise the Skill
Thanks for your Work Wesp5, I had a Blast.

 

[Lujo]

If someone's doing something with RPG's and he's not here, he's not doing it right.

Wow, is this the common delusion of the people on RPG Codex or only yours?

My personal opinion, shared to some degree by plenty of somewhat well known people. Not that being well know necessarily means anything. The Codex has actually been namedropped in such greats as Shadowrun: Honk Kong, which I personally find offenisviely meh.

And if you told him not to come here, you're not his friend. Crawl back to your cesspit.

I can't remember Acleacius or anyone else telling me not to come here. I have been here many years ago already, but as this site has many games to talk about, I only come by if I become aware that Bloodlines is discussed.

HE claimed he told you to not come here. And I said IF he did, then...

This would be much easier to believe if it didn't happen to give the most XP out of all solutions to the Vandal problem.

You get exactly the same 2 XP when bringing someone to Vandal, Gimble is no difference, only more work to get to him.

You said somewhere in all this defensive and dismissive stuff this:

That's what he was designed to be, and his encounter is designed to have a madman rushing you after you descend for an uncomfortably long while into a progressively more creepy basement.

And that is the only thing I agree with and why I will probably remove that option anyway. It's cutting content which I don't like, but then this is meta-gaming too...

See, you're not debating ME here. I'm just typing the words, but they aren't mine. It's not on you to agree or disagree, you can only understand or not understand. Why? Because these things have rules, and you seem to freak out at the idea that they do.

Here's Patty http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/VampireTheMasqueradeBloodlines . Click on it, E-H "Emo Teen". That's her function. That's why if you let the Nosferatu send her to Vandal, it works. If I picked your patch apart and threw out everything that is wrong I couldn't throw this out because it works, you did the exactly right thing, with the character made precisely for this purpose.

Milligan would also do fine, he's also made to be a victim. Those are their functions.

Here's Gimble http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/VampireTheMasqueradeBloodlines Subfolder "Human Antagonists", and as you can see he almost has his own subpage of tropes. He's not meant to be a victim.

It takes misunderstanding what those things are there for to even consider doing what was suggested. But it's not me who thinks this or that, I just happen to KNOW that. You learn these things in colledge, in writing classes, movie classes, you dissect a million media products from TV comercials to video games and you learn how these things work.

You don't have to agree or disagree with me, I just happen to be the one telling these things to you. If you do change this, you're not going to change this because of me, nor should you change this because you decided this or that subjective thing - you ought to change it if you have realized that you have made a wrong assumption about the role of certain things in the game.

The way Vandal works is to make you uncomfortable for doing a good and heroic deed. The reward for doing his quest is getting the blood bank back. Solving it by bringing someone to him is meant to be a sadistic request. That's why it's an iconic moment. Yes, there are easy dialogue options for it, but when he makes the suggestion - it's meant to make you uncomfortable. He almost literally tells you that you don't get to be Vampire Jesus. If you do bring someone to him, it's not supposed to be convenient. It's symbolic for the whole Vampire existance - you want to be virtous, see how long you can do it without other people's blood. It's a brilliant moment, and if anything, the dialogue options cheapen it. This isn't something I personally think, this is what that is.

The reason Patty works as a victim is becuase she is exactly, by design, a "named" victim girl from a club. Literally, they made an annoying one you're supposed to deal with and put her there, they just didn't link her to Vandal. So that works not because of something I think but because she's exactly what Vandal asked for, it's still a dick move because you could just fool her into leaving, but when you allowed her to be sent to Vandal you put the square peg into a square hole AND solved an actual problem which is that the Nosferatu really can screw himself out of the blood bank (kinda). The director in the skyline appartments for Pisha, for example, would be somewhat similar, a designated victim, just not as annoying.

You don't have to give any extra XP for this, though, because it has it's own inbuilt reward - the blood bank. The problem with giving XP for it is that you make it the powergaming option. It's the most XP you can get out of that, so even someone with a dialogue line to solve it without dooming someone could wait to doom patty and get the most XP.

But none of it is a matter of opinon, bargaining, sucking up to people, campaigning, this is all plain craft. You can get an infinite number of people spaming downvotes on what I'm saying, they're not downvoting ME because I'm not saying anything I personally think. Or rather they're downwoting plain thruth and basic stuff because of how I say it. I personally don't care what you do, really, because I just happen to be the person telling you that the sky is blue and whether you choose to accept it or not is entirely your thing. But on my end it's like I've got someone who just keeps getting mad because I keep telling them 2 + 2 = 4 in a certain way and I'm endlessly fascinated by that for some morbid reason.

I don't see wesp getting any bad advice on codex.

Yes? I think your advice is to basically scrap every change done since 2008 or older because you messed your game up and don't like some changed. But on the other hand don't want to play the basic patch because you like those extra XP yourself...

Actually, I would like to play the + patch because some things are fine and sensible, but these seem to come bundled with things which things that aren't. And the things which aren't can be very jarring. AND I strongly suspect there are things in the "basic" patch which shouldn't be in there, based on complaints from various people at various times, but I can't check that without a proper changelog.

For example, the "Daydream Believer quest" is perfectly sensible, even deserving of the XP point.
The Bood Buff nerf is more than welcome and I wouldn't dream of playing without it.
Being able to turn Patty in is fine.
There are other random thing you can't really object to in there.
I don't care much for restored animations or dialogues but I suppose I might have liked something somewhere - it would all be much easier to appreciate if there was a clear and detailed changelog. I'm sure there are many things about the plus patch that are great improvements, just not easy to spot.

And what's wrong with my advice?

What I adivse to you is to get rid of the Gimble thing because it's embarassing and awkward.
I suggested that you check what's supposed to trigger two quests because those didn't have to be connected to phyton, or even bugged, and I suppose you did this.
I informed you that you have two broken animations, one of which is not necessarily related to phyton.
I also informed you to make very sure the crossbow you're handing out is not doing insane ammounts of damage.
I would also advise you to not hand out the fire axe and the wakizashi like you do because they are rather good
I would deffinitely advise you to not allow both pimping for romero and shooting stuff because the pimping is really only there if someone doesn't want to do the shooty stuff.
I would also advise to be less generous with the XP, and to seriously look into learning when a quest properly motivates the player without having to give them XP. You did overdo it, but not every XP point you put everywhere is "wrong".
I would advise you to pay attention when people tell you that the restored music spoils the mood in places.

I would advise you, as I would advise anyone, to revert the Wireless Camera and Gary quest stuff, because it would do wonders for the compatibility, updating if you ever need and general stability as the gain from those additions isn't comparable to how much has to be messed with.
And before you say anything I would also advise you to consider that you might be wrong about how many people were satisfied with your patch.

You don't have to take or like my advice, of course, but it is good advice.

Because I'm so right on the subject that not listening to me on this is actively stupid.

Uh, I don't think I need to answer anything to that !

As I said, I'm not right because of something I think. I'm right because we're mostly talking about things that are not a matter of opinion. I seem to know this, some folks don't.

Wesp, you don't seem to understand what "metagaming" means. You're confusing "powergaming" and "design" and lumping it into one word.

No. Meta-gaming to me is arguing with something you as player know which your character can't know. In the Gimble case you and Acleacius do exactly this: he knows Gimble is evil and want's an alternative, you know you will fight him and don't want this cut. Your character wouldn't know either of these explanations and therefore this is pure meta-gaming!

Ah, but you equate what he and I are doing, and there's a big difference, related to the actual meaning of the word "metagaming". From wikipedia: "Historically, metagaming in RPGs referred to the traditional military use of metagaming where players applied out-of-game information to gain an unfair advantage in a game."

What he is arguing for, whether he's aware of it or not, IS the actual malicious metagaming. He could say "I want to be able to play a good vampire". But the Lily quest wasn't designed to allow him that (or rather Vandal's choice wasn't), and Gimble was not meant to be used that way. He's trying to use the out of game knowledge to his advantage - no moral dillema for Vandal, no fight with a boss, highest experience reward. He can claim this or that - but that is what he is asking for.

I am not metagaming because I personally don't get any "unfair advantage". I actually insist that there was good reason and important aesthetic considerations in regards to the elements he would change. I'd argue that getting out of Vandal's blackmail via gimble way would be dodging the whole point and that the true impact of the whole thing would be even better if you couldn't dialogue Vandal out of it at all.

If you want a solution to ensure every character gets to use the blood bank easily it's quite simple. Vandal is Jenette's / Therese's ghoul. "Can you tell your ghoul Vandal to stop hogging all the stuff, please?" "Sure thing" at some point after the main quest (if she can even be reached). Or even use her bartender, after some point in the main quest: "Can you tell the boss lady her boy Vandal is hogging all the stuff down in the basement?". No XP, but Vandal backs down just like he would from random persuasion. You're Vampire Jesus, but at least it doesn't mess with anything else.

See the difference? My suggestion doesn't skip an iconic introductory named boss, doesn't get me XP for getting my blood bank back, makes sense. Yes, it's against the way the thing was designed to work, but it's not going to rub anyone's brain in the wrong way.

This is appealing to powergamers who generally don't understand anyting but "most bonuses" and "most convenient".

"Powergaming" because you get one XP without a fight? Tell that to the quest designer of the Serial Killer plot!

You are mixing apples and oranges.

The serial killer has pretty much the highest dialogue check in the game. You can talk almost anyone into anything else without that much persuasion. The guy can still kill you while you approach him, easily, and when you talk to him you have to have put more into your persuasion than you would probably ever want to in order to talk him down. It's the opposite of powergaming, it's like if you want to be a hardcore roleplayer points be damned. Or like being stupid IRL, like spending points to have 10 research in order to read a book which only gives you 5 firearms. Fighting the Serial Killer is the powergamer option there.

What you were asked to do by Vandal is something that's supposed to be an uncomfortable concequence of doing a good deed, and you made it the best possible solution and added standard quest XP for the zone to it. If you did something like this in Chinatown it'd be something like getting to skip the Hengeyokai fight, get XP for the Hengeyokai fight AND get more than usual XP for another quest because you chose to skip the Hegeyokai fight. The numbers are small, but the principle's the same, it just takes being an actual asshole to ask for it.

 

[vmar]

my god

 

[Lujo]

my god

Well, I do tend to play a lot of malkavians.

 

[Jazz_]

How would you rate Bloodlines graphics? I often see people in reviews shitting on that aspect of the game but considering the game came out in 2004 I would say it's quite good for its time, no?

By the way, If we want to be autistic regarding the plus patch content, I have a small suggestion: you know the posh npc outside Mercurio's apartment with the broken car waiting for assistence? the car added by Wesp does not seem to fit his social status, replacing it with a fancier car would fit the npc better imo. /autistic mode off

 

[vmar]

The graphics still hold up decently well, and you can get an ENB and SweetFX package to make them quite a bit better if your pc can handle it.

 

[Lujo]

Yeah, they strike a decent balance between realistic and cartoony, and the uncanny valley effect is actually there but works for the setting instead of against it. It's meant to be eerie and creepy so what would be really awkward in another game is perfect here.

 

[Jaesun]

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?members/lujo.17964/ignore

 

[Wesp5]

How would you rate Bloodlines graphics? I often see people in reviews shitting on that aspect of the game but considering the game came out in 2004 I would say it's quite good for its time, no?

I agree. The atmosphere is great, the facial animations still top everything besides HL2 and Rage and like has already been said here, SweetFX can improve it some more!

The car added by Wesp does not seem to fit his social status, replacing it with a fancier car would fit the npc better imo.

Already done in the latest 9.6 beta because several people felt that way !

 

[Wesp5]

Why? Because these things have rules, and you seem to freak out at the idea that they do.

Uh, computer games are supposed to have fixed design rules? You know why I loved Bloodlines so much in the first place? Because it broke with a lot of the usual game rules, like there would be a bad ass final boss coming out of the sarcophagus for example! I laughted out loud when I first played the loner ending.

He's not meant to be a victim.

Yes. See above...

It's a brilliant moment, and if anything, the dialogue options cheapen it.

Yes, but still Troika added plenty because Bloodlines is about choices!

The reason Patty works as a victim is becuase she is exactly, by design, a "named" victim girl from a club.

Again, see above. I believe you are thinking in much too fixed "cliche" pathways here and Troika wasn't...

Actually, I would like to play the + patch because some things are fine and sensible, but these seem to come bundled with things which things that aren't.

Yes, that is pretty much the case, but pretty much everybody has a different opinion on what is fine and what is not.

And what's wrong with my advice?

It's very subjective, but told as if it was objective! You dislike some things, other people dislike other things. As the earlier suggestion here already showed, I would need about a few dozend installation options to satisfy everyone and that just can't be done!

I would advise you, as I would advise anyone, to revert the Wireless Camera and Gary quest stuff, because it would do wonders for the compatibility, updating if you ever need and general stability as the gain from those additions isn't comparable to how much has to be messed with.

This recomendation once again discredits any others of yours, because you don't understand how the game works and how your version of it got messed up! Maybe I should cut the whole Skyeline Apartement from the game because it can still cause the infamous models-all-over-the-place-bug?

I am not metagaming because I personally don't get any "unfair advantage".

I wasn't aware of the "unfair advantage" definition. In the German LARP community for example, "meta-gaming" does not need this.

My suggestion doesn't skip an iconic introductory named boss, doesn't get me XP for getting my blood bank back, makes sense.

Your suggestion is not at all different from the ones Troika already included by just talking Vandal back into selling blood.

The serial killer has pretty much the highest dialogue check in the game. You can talk almost anyone into anything else without that much persuasion.

You know what, it's great that you wrote this, because in the meantime I had already come up with a solution that could be a good compromise between your view and that of Acleacius. The Gimble alternative stays in, but you will need a Persuasion of 6 to pull it off, which is the second highest in the whole of Santa Monica besides the Serial Killer which is encountered much later in the game anyway. It is also the Persuasion you need to reach Lily peacefully over Phil in the first place. This way I can make pretty sure that no beginner will ever have the chance to skip the iconic fight with Gimble, while at the same time people like Acleacius who like to play high charisma high humanity vampires can bundle their resources to get the morally best solution out of it. And by the way, Troika never gave you that measly XP for killing Gimble. It is given for freeing Carson which fit's it all perfectly!

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I like how Wesp doesn't throw a temper tantrum over this idiot. Not your typical modder.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

I like how Wesp doesn't throw a temper tantrum over this idiot. Not your typical modder.

He's almost a saint. Your typical person, let alone modder, would have either flipped out or left the thread after the third or fourth condescending and insulting wall of text.

"You are an idiot for not doing free work to meet my specific preferences" is kind of a weird opinion to have about someone.

 

[Lujo]

I like how Wesp doesn't throw a temper tantrum over this idiot. Not your typical modder.

It's easy for him to stay calm. For him, game design follows no rules, the sky is the limit and Bloodlines is the most original and greatest thing ever made. And he did throw a temper tantrum, of his own kind, he just calmed down. Apparently people have been saying these things about him, more or less, since someone first got fed up with having to use his patches. Which was about 10 yeas ago. Except according to some they weren't his patches and the ammount of actual bugfixing he did doesn't seem to be all that impressive. And the comments about the loonies was that wesp had a better personality, but their patch was way better. The "front" guy for the other patch has the worst personality ever, so that means it must've been a very good patch.

And I have a feeling, based on what I've seen in the gamefaq's guide that the basic patch isn't as basic as the name would imply. And what I get from the conversation is that it's hard to tell if he would actually know how to make a patch that was genuinely just bugfixes.

Anyone know how to get in touch with this fellow who did the actual work on the other patch? In case I haven't accidentally told him to go fuck himself I'd go ask him a few questions. I won't get a proper changelog for the "basic" patch from wesp, so I'd love some first hand info from someone who took it apart properly once upon a time.