Vapourware That Which Sleeps - Vaporware Strategy RP

[Lightsinthesky]

Maybe Josh got fired for being unreliable and that's why he had to move to Boston

 

[thesheeep]

Show us the accounts! I will do a full blog post on this later but these people should be reported to the FTC and go to prison.

Well, that would certainly lead to some popcorn drama, wouldn't it?

 

[Rahdulan]

So there is hope against hope?

 

[exe]

Someone needs to change the thread name to 100% scam confirmed.
I honestly don't understand how shit like that doesn't get you sued.

 

[MRY]

Those quotes are pretty damning. I don't really know any way to explain them.

To me, the main evidence that it was not a fraud is that, for a time, they employed one of the artists on FG and paid him regularly. I'd have to go back and double check, but I think that was after the campaign ended. [EDIT: Yes, it was after the KSer.] Assuming that they were paying the other artists, too, I'm not sure that they actually would be clearing that much money. Obviously people engage in fraud for small returns -- occasionally I'll get a request for a Primordia key from people who have made fake game-review websites, and I really wonder at the hourly rate of return on that scam -- but this seems like a huge amount of elaborate work. A true KS fraud (like Confederate Express) front-loads all the material during the campaign, then promptly goes silent. Here, they've been showing new art for years -- if they're paying for it, they're spending money on "inducement" for their fraud even though there's no ongoing victim money to be induce. (There's no Paypal campaign, is there?)

Ultimately, the work-return / risk-reward here just doesn't seem plausible. These guys aren't marginal drifters who can disappear into the ether. And it's not like they got half a million bucks.

I think the most plausible explanation is a combination of wishful thinking, programmer flakiness, and a desire to keep the adulation going as long as possible. I remember a crazy account Adam Cadre gave from his childhood where he went with his dad to visit his sister's tombstone, and it turned out the dad had been too cheap to buy her a tombstone. But the whole way there, he kept talking about the tombstone and what it was like, even though he knew that in 90 minutes the lies would be disproved. That's how people are. Not necessarily because they're bad but because they're so averse to pain.

 

[Ludovic]

I think the most plausible explanation is a combination of wishful thinking, programmer flakiness, and a desire to keep the adulation going as long as possible. I remember a crazy account Adam Cadre gave from his childhood where he went with his dad to visit his sister's tombstone, and it turned out the dad had been too cheap to buy her a tombstone. But the whole way there, he kept talking about the tombstone and what it was like, even though he knew that in 90 minutes the lies would be disproved. That's how people are. Not necessarily because they're bad but because they're so averse to pain.

Yes, I agree. I don't think this was ever a "fake a prototype, get funding, take it and run" scam. However, it was probably a "fake it till you make it" kind of deal - where they honestly believed they could create this game if they just got the funding. Perhaps they felt that any misrepresentation about the state of the prototype was excusable by this being the only way to actually get the necessary funding. I've seen that kind of thinking in many kinds of business over the years, and usually from passionate individuals. One guy I worked for had spun an intricate web of lies and half-truths, presenting differering stories to employees, investors and customers. He wasn't a bad person, and made no money from this - probably racked up debt, but he also wrought financial ruin on the people dragged into the mess. It's a pretty common occurrence among entrepreneurs to not be entirely truthful.

Of course, this story is far less severe - few people lost much - apart from high-tier backers, and that's an inherently risky position to take. The only thing that vexes me, is that they were 2 developers. If Josh is the untethered dreamer he seems to be - why didn't his business partner reign him in? Can it really be true that his friend and fellow founder never knew the state of the game? I don't know these people, so I shouldn't pass judgement, but a part of me feels that it is somewhat unfair that Fenicks gets to present his side of the story, and basically put all the blame on the other guy. Who is the victim and who is the crook? We'll never know.

To be honest, when I saw the Kickstarter, my impression was exactly that it was based on half-truths and misrepresentations. But I backed it anyway. Because I think it is a great concept, and I would have liked them to succeed. Should I have warned the other backers about my suspicions? No, I don't think so.

Does that mean that lying is ok? That crowdfunding a product under false pretenses, but with the intent to deliver, is ok? Of course not. But in this case, it is my firm belief that the developers have already paid a heavy emotional, financial and reputational cost. They put their names and a lot of time on the line. Employers or business contacts who do background checks will see this mess. I find it extremely harsh to want to put them through further misery by taking up legal action. I am disappointed that they have not been more transparent about their progress and financials - but certainly not enough to want them to suffer further.

If anything, we should perhaps start asking crowdfunding companies to take greater responsibility. Kickstarter staff endorsed this product, which I think is somewhat irresponsible, and Kickstarter got their cut, with no risk and no strings attached. I would like it if crowdfunding platforms were more committed to keeping a high standard of transparency and communication.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Those quotes are pretty damning. I don't really know any way to explain them.

To me, the main evidence that it was not a fraud is that, for a time, they employed one of the artists on FG and paid him regularly. I'd have to go back and double check, but I think that was after the campaign ended. [EDIT: Yes, it was after the KSer.] Assuming that they were paying the other artists, too, I'm not sure that they actually would be clearing that much money. Obviously people engage in fraud for small returns -- occasionally I'll get a request for a Primordia key from people who have made fake game-review websites, and I really wonder at the hourly rate of return on that scam -- but this seems like a huge amount of elaborate work. A true KS fraud (like Confederate Express) front-loads all the material during the campaign, then promptly goes silent. Here, they've been showing new art for years -- if they're paying for it, they're spending money on "inducement" for their fraud even though there's no ongoing victim money to be induce. (There's no Paypal campaign, is there?)

Ultimately, the work-return / risk-reward here just doesn't seem plausible. These guys aren't marginal drifters who can disappear into the ether. And it's not like they got half a million bucks.

I think the most plausible explanation is a combination of wishful thinking, programmer flakiness, and a desire to keep the adulation going as long as possible. I remember a crazy account Adam Cadre gave from his childhood where he went with his dad to visit his sister's tombstone, and it turned out the dad had been too cheap to buy her a tombstone. But the whole way there, he kept talking about the tombstone and what it was like, even though he knew that in 90 minutes the lies would be disproved. That's how people are. Not necessarily because they're bad but because they're so averse to pain.

I'm calling it fraud simply because they lied that they had a working game in alpha state, which was untrue. Fenicks cannot defend this and play the innocent card. He either knew they had a game or he knew that they didn't. As of now they have no game at all, only some art slapped together.
Anyway, I liked your idea of someone getting the rights to all the resources that a failed KS project built up so that they could be sold for some money that can be distributed between the KS backers.

 

[Vordrak]

I don't think this was ever a "fake a prototype, get funding, take it and run" scam. However, it was probably a "fake it till you make it" kind of deal - where they honestly believed they could create this game if they just got the funding. Perhaps they felt that any misrepresentation about the state of the prototype was excusable by this being the only way to actually get the necessary funding.

If you are right then in law that is still criminal fraud and punishable by imprisonment.

 

[ThisNameIsFree]

This is doesn't look like scam tbh. More like management disaster. Most likely those people have no clue how to manage finances and time. Continuous lies is hard to forgive though. How do they plan plan handle situation now?

 

[Galdred]

I don't think this was ever a "fake a prototype, get funding, take it and run" scam. However, it was probably a "fake it till you make it" kind of deal - where they honestly believed they could create this game if they just got the funding. Perhaps they felt that any misrepresentation about the state of the prototype was excusable by this being the only way to actually get the necessary funding.

If you are right then in law that is still criminal fraud and punishable by imprisonment.

But tech demos almost always work like this:
demo code is usually at best patched up to give good results in the narrow conditions of the demo, which usually means that it would not work for the real software.
They managed the game poorly, and overestimated their abilities, but getting jailed for this seems a bit overkill to me.
If the main problem is the AI, it can still be salvaged with proper level design:
You could very well have some kind of rule system that would drive the actions of the NPC actions (a bit like the aliens in 1994 X-COM), that could provide an adequate challenge without relying on an overly complicated AI.

 

[Jaedar]

I don't think this was ever a "fake a prototype, get funding, take it and run" scam. However, it was probably a "fake it till you make it" kind of deal - where they honestly believed they could create this game if they just got the funding. Perhaps they felt that any misrepresentation about the state of the prototype was excusable by this being the only way to actually get the necessary funding.

If you are right then in law that is still criminal fraud and punishable by imprisonment.

But tech demos almost always work like this:
demo code is usually at best patched up to give good results in the narrow conditions of the demo, which usually means that it would not work for the real software.
They managed the game poorly, and overestimated their abilities, but getting jailed for this seems a bit overkill to me.
If the main problem is the AI, it can still be salvaged with proper level design:
You could very well have some kind of rule system that would drive the actions of the NPC actions (a bit like the aliens in 1994 X-COM), that could provide an adequate challenge without relying on an overly complicated AI.

I think the thing they should do is publish all the code and assets they have, and then try and finish the project as open source thing.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

I don't think this was ever a "fake a prototype, get funding, take it and run" scam. However, it was probably a "fake it till you make it" kind of deal - where they honestly believed they could create this game if they just got the funding. Perhaps they felt that any misrepresentation about the state of the prototype was excusable by this being the only way to actually get the necessary funding.

If you are right then in law that is still criminal fraud and punishable by imprisonment.

But tech demos almost always work like this:
demo code is usually at best patched up to give good results in the narrow conditions of the demo, which usually means that it would not work for the real software.
They managed the game poorly, and overestimated their abilities, but getting jailed for this seems a bit overkill to me.
If the main problem is the AI, it can still be salvaged with proper level design:
You could very well have some kind of rule system that would drive the actions of the NPC actions (a bit like the aliens in 1994 X-COM), that could provide an adequate challenge without relying on an overly complicated AI.

I think the thing they should do is publish all the code and assets they have, and then try and finish the project as open source thing.

Im kinda curious, why doesn't this happen at all? (Unfinished game rather be completely axed than open sourced for community)

 

[Jaedar]

Im kinda curious, why doesn't this happen at all? (Unfinished game rather be completely axed than open sourced for community)

Presumably, its ego. I guess most people would rather own an unfinished game, than release it into the wild, where it is either ruined by the masses, or the masses make it better than you could.

Also there could be various licensing issues with their commissioned art and such.

 

[Ludovic]

Im kinda curious, why doesn't this happen at all? (Unfinished game rather be completely axed than open sourced for community)

The license for anything from the Unity Asset store forbid redistribution in any way, except embedded in a game. Art which is directly commissioned from a freelance artist is usually licensed for usage for a specific game, and redistribution is not allowed. Both of these cases include sub-licensing and release into the public domain.

The other reason is that source code is hard to reuse. Especially from a failed project - in the vast majority of cases, it is faster, and a lot more fun (read: less insanity-inducing), to rewrite the code from scratch. I've had jobs where I had to take salvage the codebase of a failed project - it is grueling and soul crushing work.

Jaedar: You've got an Eldar as your avatar - so I assume you've painted miniatures. It's a bit a like getting a shoddily half-painted army in mismatching colors, with broken bits and having to finish it to a high standard - and make sure it works on the tabletop. You'll probably have to buy a lot of missing pieces, and repaint everything.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

Im kinda curious, why doesn't this happen at all? (Unfinished game rather be completely axed than open sourced for community)

The license for anything from the Unity Asset store forbid redistribution in any way, except embedded in a game. Art which is directly commissioned from a freelance artist is usually licensed for usage for a specific game, and redistribution is not allowed. Both of these cases include sub-licensing and release into the public domain.

Yeah I guess that is largest part of the reason why, haven't really thought of that

You've got an Eldar as your avatar - so I assume you've painted miniatures. It's a bit a like getting a shoddily half-painted army in mismatching colors, with broken bits and having to finish it to a high standard - and make sure it works on the tabletop. You'll probably have to buy a lot of missing pieces, and repaint everything.

: The wraithbone sings to us!

 

[Galdred]

And there are not that many successful open source game projects (that are not a remake of a game), because it takes a lot of time and effort to do so, and people usually prefer working on their own project.
Games that have a lot of popularity can get an open source remake because they can have a huge dedicated fanbase.

Except for Battle for Wesnoth, I know of very little successful open source games that are not a remake of something else.

+ as Ludovic said, working on someone else codebase can be madness inducing, especially if the project failed because said codebase was impossible to maintain.

 

[Lightsinthesky]

Fenicks cannot defend this and play the innocent card. He either knew they had a game or he knew that they didn't.

What about Option C, Fenicks didn't know anything because he's an idiot who gave a hack over a thousand dollars out of his own pocket

 

[Hobo Elf]

Fenicks cannot defend this and play the innocent card. He either knew they had a game or he knew that they didn't.

What about Option C, Fenicks didn't know anything because he's an idiot who gave a hack over a thousand dollars out of his own pocket

Then he's a dummy but it doesn't abolish him from responsibility, which he keeps attempting each time he writes up an update. Each time Fenicks writes something it's always about how everything is Joshes fault and that he's just as frustrated as the backers are. After 6 months of no tangible progress he should've been shopping for a new programmer and kicked Josh out of the project.

 

[almondblight]

What about Option C, Fenicks didn't know anything because he's an idiot who gave a hack over a thousand dollars out of his own pocket

The thing is...Josh writes about all of these games that he's played and what's happened, and also all of these games that the backers have been playing, and Fenicks isn't merely uninterested in playing the game himself, but he isn't even interested in talking with the alpha testers? Fenicks claims that Josh sent him a single build, he couldn't get it to work, and then he never asked for another one.

I don't think Josh and Fenicks were trying to scam people from the beginning, but it seems like they were also happy to mislead people/straight up lie to people. Hell, Fenicks' May update said "I will get skewered alive if I give a release prediction - so all I can say is we're definitely getting closer every day." That's really not what you should be telling people if you've never seen a build and your programmer has been avoiding your calls for months.

 

[vonAchdorf]

Maybe they are agents of The Great Deceiver.

 

[Bubbles]

Maybe this is all part of an ARG to prepare us for the Early Access launch next month.

 

[Jaedar]

Maybe this is all part of an ARG to prepare us for the Early Access launch next month.

What if TWS is another name for frog fractions 2.

 

[Galdred]

Maybe they are agents of The Great Deceiver.

They may also have succumbed to insanity.

 

[DramaticPopcorn]

Anything new from this duo? I imagine there's a lot of butthurt on beta forums.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Anything new from this duo? I imagine there's a lot of butthurt on beta forums.

Does anyone here have access to it? Or maybe they deleted the beta forum as well?