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Fate of the Middle Class RPG

Llama-Yak Hybrid

Wild Sheep
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Can you imagine people (who grew up with Skyrim) 15 years from now - "Man, games today suck, why can't we have an amazing game like Skyrim?". Uuugghh, just thinking about it makes me want to puke.
You do it with Baldings Govt.
 

thesisko

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2
I read the OP as "Most Codexers think New Vegas and The Witcher 3 are better games than PoE and Wasteland 2 therefore the future of CRPG's is open-world AAA's with good writing."
To me that makes no sense, just because Obsidian and inXile failed (in some people's opinions) to live up to their promises doesn't invalidate the fact that being able to produce games with a wider range of budgets and target audiences (due to digital distribution, Early Access, Kickstarter etc) is good for all genres.

The advantage of "mid-tier" budget games compared to "indies" are production values (voice work, art etc). The advantage compared to "AAA's" is being financially viable despite a smaller target audience and therefore being able to include more niche elements. And it's not like there are any absolutes here, an indie developer will transition into "mid-tier" if their games sell well enough.
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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Can you imagine people (who grew up with Skyrim) 15 years from now - "Man, games today suck, why can't we have an amazing game like Skyrim?". Uuugghh, just thinking about it makes me want to puke.
I was going to say this in reply to a previous post of yours - when we are talking about low and high standards (in RPGs in this case) we are really asking what constitutes "good taste" and how do you define that someone has it.

Maybe if the technology was available for us to start our gaming days with Skyrim we would never have liked isometric/2D RPGs...
 

Trashos

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Maybe if the technology was available for us to start our gaming days with Skyrim we would never have liked isometric/2D RPGs...

Who knows, but there are things you can do with isometric that you can't do with first-person. Think complex combat. So isometric would still find its audience whenever it would pop up.
 

makiavelli747

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Can you imagine people 15 years from now - "Man, games today suck, why can't we have an amazing game like Skyrim?". Uuugghh, just thinking about it makes me want to puke.
it is already happening. I saw a lot of fans of oblivion hate skyrim. fans of mass effect 1 hate ME 2/3.
even fans of gta 4 now are calling fans of gta 5 casuals
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
I was going to say this in reply to a previous post of yours - when we are talking about low and high standards (in RPGs in this case) we are really asking what constitutes "good taste" and how do you define that someone has it.

Good taste is not hard to define :p The important thing to keep in mind is that good taste is learned, cultivated and informed, there's nothing random about it and you aren't born with it.
 

Llama-Yak Hybrid

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Maybe if the technology was available for us to start our gaming days with Skyrim we would never have liked isometric/2D RPGs...
Nah. It's a matter of being Neanderthal sentient being or not.

The technology to make a game "like" skyrim was here at least since mid 90's. I won't say early 90's even though you've had Ultima Underworld etc. before it, but assuming you want something that can run decently on things, it would have to be mid 90's.

I know young people who enjoy isometric RPG's, I am personally very young in comparison to typical blobber fan but again - I like them. The reason is - they offer different qualities than the action RPG's of all kinds.
It's just that action games appeal to wider audience than RPG's which means that action RPG's appeal to wider audience than RPG's. The only thing that matters in the end is quality. I shit on most action-RPG's codex likes but I'll never say a bad word about Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, you get the point. Obviously shiteaters will like shit just becasue it's popular - see The Witcher fans hating on Bioware - even though The Witcher games only deviate from the ideal modern Bioware uses by having set protagonist. Other than that they're similar in structure.
 
Unwanted

Manmower

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I know that Oblivion seems to be going very far away from that concept and that annoys a lot of people, but it seems great to me.
:decline:

Can you imagine people (who grew up with Skyrim) 15 years from now - "Man, games today suck, why can't we have an amazing game like Skyrim?". Uuugghh, just thinking about it makes me want to puke.
:lol:
 

SwiftCrack

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Can you imagine people (who grew up with Skyrim) 15 years from now - "Man, games today suck, why can't we have an amazing game like Skyrim?". Uuugghh, just thinking about it makes me want to puke.

Very, very easily.

I wouldn't be surprised if some people are already clawing back to the era just before Skyrim.
 

BlackAdderBG

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I am so far up my own bubble

Yeah. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the buyers of Kickstarter RPGs are all part of some "we" of hardcore Codex grognards. These are the top ten games also owned by Pillars of Eternity owners, along with the percentage that own them:

iSbGKQ6.png


The median owner of a Kickstarter RPG is the "midcore" single player PC gamer who plays games like Skyrim, Civilization, and XCOM.
This proves absolutely nothing.All these games are 4,99 material/bundle fodder and you can check any game in any genre and see at least 5 of the same games.
 
Unwanted

Manmower

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Skyrim is a dumbed down game, but its success still provides a pathway for even more dumbed down games like Mass Effect to become better, without necessarily becoming open world hiking sims themselves.
In theory, yes. But think about this for a minute: would any money-grubbing publisher/developer (ie., all of them) expend time and resources to create something objectively better when even shlock sells like hotcakes? The whole problem with Bethesda and garbage like Fallout 4 is that the retarded masses gulp it down without a second thought. If people panned FO4 en masse, we'd definitely start seeing some changes and more effort put into future titles, but since they didn't, we won't.

EDIT: And the only people who are forced to innovate are smaller studios hungry for both brand-name recognition and new fans. And these are incidentally the devhouses which find innovation the most difficult, as they're not only strapped for resources, but also fans. It's an ugly Catch 22.
 

Brutan

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I didn't like Skyrim, Fallout New Vegas or Witcher 3. In fact I couldn't even stand them for more than two hours and it wasn't for lack of trying, belive me.
I also had a lot of trouble with Underrail and Serpent in the Stag, they were awful and impossible to play, they didn't even have a map.

On the other hand, I enjoyed the Shadowrun games, PoE, LoE, Dead State,Banner Saga, Age of Decadence, Wasteland 2. I look forward to Tyranny and Torment. So for me "middle class Rpgs" are the sweet spot. Not lacking any basic elements like games made by some small indies and not crap like AAA titles.
 

hpstg

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Messages
485
Man some words are used p. liberally on these boards.
Like the word "liberal". To the subject now.

I've been reading the Codex for a bit more than a decade now, just not participating. The games list that Infinitron put is completely representative of the Codex, and almost all the games are in one sense or another interesting and/or good. Why do you do this to yourselves? There's nothing wrong in spending an afternoon installing Skyrim mods and jerking off to them when you get a new GPU, or getting "lost" in a couple of the dungeons. Similarly there is nothing wrong with Portal, the new XCOM and Civ. You don't get extra manliness points by ignoring your own games list.

Enjoying those doesn't remove value from other games. Why everything has to be so black and white? Why the extra internet testosterone? I'm not arguing for peace on Earth, just for a little less hypocrisy.
 

Trashos

Arcane
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Messages
3,413
I've been reading the Codex for a bit more than a decade now, just not participating. The games list that Infinitron put is completely representative of the Codex, and almost all the games are in one sense or another interesting and/or good. Why do you do this to yourselves? There's nothing wrong in spending an afternoon installing Skyrim mods and jerking off to them when you get a new GPU, or getting "lost" in a couple of the dungeons. Similarly there is nothing wrong with Portal, the new XCOM and Civ. You don't get extra manliness points by ignoring your own games list.

Enjoying those doesn't remove value from other games. Why everything has to be so black and white? Why the extra internet testosterone? I'm not arguing for peace on Earth, just for a little less hypocrisy.

Personally, I research games extensively before I decide what to invest time in. I value my entertainment time very highly and am not looking for time wasters. I look for games that are fun (the way I define fun), deeply satisfying, challenging, intellectually stimulating etc, that I can spend months with (over multiple playthroughs), and remember them fondly afterwards. Sure, no game is perfect, but they have to satisfy a few of my requirements at least.

So no, Skyrim has not persuaded me to give it a try (and yes, I understand that Bethesda spend their evenings crying over my decision).

Can everyone stop using the example of Civ? Civ4 is probably one of the most hardcore games ever created, what is wrong with you all?
 

hpstg

Savant
Joined
Nov 14, 2014
Messages
485
I've been reading the Codex for a bit more than a decade now, just not participating. The games list that Infinitron put is completely representative of the Codex, and almost all the games are in one sense or another interesting and/or good. Why do you do this to yourselves? There's nothing wrong in spending an afternoon installing Skyrim mods and jerking off to them when you get a new GPU, or getting "lost" in a couple of the dungeons. Similarly there is nothing wrong with Portal, the new XCOM and Civ. You don't get extra manliness points by ignoring your own games list.

Enjoying those doesn't remove value from other games. Why everything has to be so black and white? Why the extra internet testosterone? I'm not arguing for peace on Earth, just for a little less hypocrisy.

Personally, I research games extensively before I decide what to invest time in. I value my entertainment time very highly and am not looking for time wasters. I look for games that are fun (the way I define fun), deeply satisfying, challenging, intellectually stimulating etc, that I can spend months with (over multiple playthroughs), and remember them fondly afterwards. Sure, no game is perfect, but they have to satisfy a few of my requirements at least.

So no, Skyrim has not persuaded me to give it a try (and yes, I understand that Bethesda spend their evenings crying over my decision).

Can everyone stop using the example of Civ? Civ4 is probably one of the most hardcore games ever created, what is wrong with you all?
Looking for proper games is often more entertaining that the games you end up finding.
 
Last edited:

sullynathan

Arcane
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Dec 22, 2015
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6,473
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Not Europe
what the fuck is op trying to discuss here? because codex has a hard-on for Obsidian & CDPR, that non-AAA rpgs should die?

Please, Mass Effect 2 was more fun to play than Skyrim and I didn't need 99 mods to make it better.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
IMO you're overthinking it. From where I'm at, the disaffection with mid-tier RPG's is just the usual hype-excitement-disappointment cycle writ large.

Give it some time. Five years down the line, there will be a few 2014-2016 games that will be remembered, replayed, raged about, and compared to other games both older and newer, while most will fade away. I expect you'll find some from each tier in that group. You can only really judge a game on its own merits after the emotional uproar about it has died down; until then, even the most cool-headed, objective of reviewers (=me) will find it difficult to disentangle expectations and reality.

tl;dr gamers are excitable creatures

edit: and anyone who thinks we're not seeing more decent-good-excellent cRPG's coming out now than five years ago is moran
 

boot

Prophet
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Messages
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Location
Bartow, FL
infinitron (jewish) makes a post with over 2000 words
has no semantic value whatsover
makes up the term "middle class rpg"
we're supposed to talk about it for some reason
it's important for some reason

at the SAME time, there is somekind of scandal going on in the bigboy part of the forum I can't see yet
You think I don't know whats going on here buddy?
 

Prime Junta

Guest
christ this infinitron is joooo thing is getting old, write some new material already people
 

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