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Should RPGs let you blow up locked doors with fireballs? DISCUSS

Joined
Apr 10, 2013
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
We're all trapped in this mortal coil of ours. Life is the lock and death is the key.

Josh Sawyer uses Pick Lock, and transcends to a plane beyond our mortal ken. The Plane of Existential Balance.
 

Ladonna

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Roguey, noise is definately a part of getting through doors in Wasteland 1. If you fail using a crowbar, lockpick, insert whatever item you use, enemies can appear and game tells you this is due to the noise of your fumble. Same when you use explosives, rockets, grenades, or weapons. This doesn't happen all of the time, but it can and will happen, especially in a hostile area. In so many ways, Wasteland was light years ahead of anything CRPG related, and still is.
 

Roguey

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I didn't enjoy playing it though. :M

Most RPGs also let you escape or avoid many combat areas, so I guess hard counters don't exist anywhere but the critical path?

Baldur's Gate is remarkably hard counter-free if you simply run away from any fight that incentivizes hard counters.

Josh's issue with hard counters in BG2 is that it was quite possible to build a party that lacked the counter. Yes, there were crit path hard counter mage fights and at least one dragon fight that you had to beat to progress.
 

Lhynn

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Josh's issue with hard counters in BG2 is that it was quite possible to build a party that lacked the counter. Yes, there were crit path hard counter mage fights and at least one dragon fight that you had to beat to progress.
That sounds like he had a problem with people lowering the difficulty or getting better at the game. Which of course we know he does, he likes to punish skilled players and enable rampant stupidity and lack of preparation. As weve seen through the years.
 
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Llama-Yak Hybrid

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Josh's issue with hard counters in BG2 is that it was quite possible to build a party that lacked the counter. Yes, there were crit path hard counter mage fights and at least one dragon fight that you had to beat to progress.
Josh's issue is that he uses Baldings Govt as any kind of reference to how to make good game.
 
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Game designers should be expected to do their damn jobs. If you don't want us to fireball doors, either don't give us fireballs or don't place any doors. If fireballing doors is too much to code for, you're in the wrong line of work.
 

Roguey

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But it didn't make game unbeatable. Or is every system where it's possible to play suboptimally flawed?

For bad players it did. Particularly if they're role players who don't want to put someone they don't want in their party just to make it through the fights.
 

Lhynn

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"Most players are bad,"--Josh Sawyer
No, most players are average. Most developers and publishers just make games for the lowest common denominator in hopes theyll buy it. But the lowest common denominator doesnt buy old school rpgs, so whats the fucking point of applying that way of thinking to make them?
 

Roguey

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No, most players are average. Most developers and publishers just make games for the lowest common denominator in hopes theyll buy it. But the lowest common denominator doesnt buy old school rpgs, so whats the fucking point of applying that way of thinking to make them?

http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features/interviews/icewindii_b.shtml
JE Sawyer said:
Both Icewind Dale and Heart of Winter suffered from many character generation and game balance criticisms. Both of these aspects of the game are crucial to a player's overall fun. It pained me to hear stories about frustrated new players dying twelve times in a row fighting the Easthaven goblins. Hopefully, we won't suffer those problems in Icewind Dale II.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/57754-josh-sawyer-at-gdc-europe-2011/page-2#entry1139703
JE Sawyer said:
Also, yes a larger problem with IWD was that it was tuned for people familiar with AD&D. I was there for the entire QA process. There were fights that Kihan Pak and I breezed through on the first try that infuriated and completely blocked testers. Let me repeat that: there were professional game testers whose job it was to play AD&D CRPGs who were completely blocked by fights in the original IWD, unable to proceed. In contrast, other testers and some developers (notably Kihan and I) had little to no difficulty with these same encounters.
 

Reapa

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No, most players are average. Most developers and publishers just make games for the lowest common denominator in hopes theyll buy it. But the lowest common denominator doesnt buy old school rpgs, so whats the fucking point of applying that way of thinking to make them?

http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features/interviews/icewindii_b.shtml
JE Sawyer said:
Both Icewind Dale and Heart of Winter suffered from many character generation and game balance criticisms. Both of these aspects of the game are crucial to a player's overall fun. It pained me to hear stories about frustrated new players dying twelve times in a row fighting the Easthaven goblins. Hopefully, we won't suffer those problems in Icewind Dale II.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/57754-josh-sawyer-at-gdc-europe-2011/page-2#entry1139703
JE Sawyer said:
Also, yes a larger problem with IWD was that it was tuned for people familiar with AD&D. I was there for the entire QA process. There were fights that Kihan Pak and I breezed through on the first try that infuriated and completely blocked testers. Let me repeat that: there were professional game testers whose job it was to play AD&D CRPGs who were completely blocked by fights in the original IWD, unable to proceed. In contrast, other testers and some developers (notably Kihan and I) had little to no difficulty with these same encounters.
quoting sawyer is like quoting known shitposters and dumbfucks of the codex. people may know who you speak of but that doesn't make their statements valid. it just makes you look stupid. yes there are people whose job it is to playtest. there were also people whose job it was to farm wow gold all day long. both did not get payed well and both were not very smart. their game of choice in this case would not have been iwd since they obviously sucked so much at it they couldn't even kill goblins but rather something with a bit more action like fallout 4 or goat rape simulator. the part about adnd professional testers is obviously made up since there were never enough adnd games to make a living off of playtesting them.
 

Lhynn

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JE Sawyer said:
Both Icewind Dale and Heart of Winter suffered from many character generation and game balance criticisms. Both of these aspects of the game are crucial to a player's overall fun. It pained me to hear stories about frustrated new players dying twelve times in a row fighting the Easthaven goblins. Hopefully, we won't suffer those problems in Icewind Dale II.
"many", people complain about difficulty. the first week of release D:OS had players complaining they couldnt kill shitty zombies. Bad players are bad, doesnt mean they make a majority, or that you should listen to them. Sides, let players get frustrated, let them grit their teeth and try again, eventually theyll do better. That feeling of being unable to beat something, then figuring it out, give me that, i want that.
An entire phenomenon has taken place in gaming today merely because some shitty ARPG excels at being frustrating.

JE Sawyer said:
Also, yes a larger problem with IWD was that it was tuned for people familiar with AD&D. I was there for the entire QA process. There were fights that Kihan Pak and I breezed through on the first try that infuriated and completely blocked testers. Let me repeat that: there were professional game testers whose job it was to play AD&D CRPGs who were completely blocked by fights in the original IWD, unable to proceed. In contrast, other testers and some developers (notably Kihan and I) had little to no difficulty with these same encounters.
This only proves that some people should get fired. Again, if a person cant beat an obstacle, then that person should be left behind, faced with that he either quits or improves. "We have bad players and therefore we make easy games" isnt how it works. Its more like "we make easy games, therefore breed bad players".
 
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Carrion

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I think Roguey should finally give Pillars of Eternity a try, just to get some perspective on how well Sawyer's principles really work in practice. Spoiler: they don't.

I refuse to believe that anyone actually got stuck in BG2 because of the difficulty. A more likely scenario is that there was a vocal bunch of people who simply didn't have the patience to 1) learn to play the damn game, or 2) try to beat a tough fight more than a handful of times before giving up and complaining about it. Those are probably not the people you should be designing your games for anyway.

We have bad players and therefore we make easy games" isnt how it works. Its more like "we make easy games, therefore breed bad players".
Also this.
 

Roguey

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When a game isn't based on reflexes or extreme RNG, those are in fact the only ways to get stuck.
 

Carrion

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When a game isn't based on reflexes or extreme RNG, those are in fact the only ways to get stuck.
Then there is no problem, is there? I thought hard counters were an issue specifically because of some metagaming angle, but if it comes down to players being too lazy to even try, I guess the argument was even more pointless than usual. Sawyer really is just an ambassador of decline.
 

Beastro

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How is this relevant in any way? every game ever is unbeatable if you are bad enough.
"Most players are bad,"--Josh Sawyer

nclblogo.jpg
 

Telengard

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Then there is no problem, is there? I thought hard counters were an issue specifically because of some metagaming angle, but if it comes down to players being too lazy to even try, I guess the argument was even more pointless than usual. Sawyer really is just an ambassador of decline.
As was Bioware before them, who made a little game called Baldur's Gate which they promised would be a streamlined and simpler version of D&D that everyone and his mother could play - their words. But despite that, they still had to dumb down their combat encounters once the playtesters got ahold of them. Why? Because the core RPG audience are the sort of people who will do the same thing over and over and over, even if it gets them killed over and over and over. They just keep ramming their head into the wall, never learning. And they will just keep dying until eventually, inevitably, they give up, and then blame the game for being stupid. Because their builds are obviously perfect.

It's quite a crowd, really.
 

Roguey

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Then there is no problem, is there? I thought hard counters were an issue specifically because of some metagaming angle, but if it comes down to players being too lazy to even try, I guess the argument was even more pointless than usual. Sawyer really is just an ambassador of decline.

He's an ambassador of most people who play RPGs, including Obsidian's own designers.
 

Shadenuat

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But it didn't make game unbeatable. Or is every system where it's possible to play suboptimally flawed?

For bad players it did. Particularly if they're role players who don't want to put someone they don't want in their party just to make it through the fights.
Well I think every roleplayer realises it's not possible to get everything what he wants in a zero sum game. And even in PnP, it is not possible always since other players have different opinions.

If you choose to play suboptimally because you want to, you will always have to accept the consequences.
 

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