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Should RPGs let you blow up locked doors with fireballs? DISCUSS

Lhynn

Arcane
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Aug 28, 2013
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Name 'em.
Arcanum, fallout, even pst, for a lot of the same reasons but on the interaction with other npcs, etc. The more the game allows us to interact with the world and affect it, and the characters in it, the more we like it and the more we are willing to forgive their flaws.
Shit, nwn is only relevant because of what modders have been able to do with it, bringing interesting stories, but more than anything, good roleplaying elements. Because the gameplay itself is kind of ass. AP is liked only because it tried to give the player a lot of agency even in a mostly linear story, which is something that was never tried before.
Fact is, all we want is to be able to do something else than picking that lock to get whats inside, even if its not the best option, its still an option.

I really doubt people in general like gamey shit, they merely put up with because they dont have a choice.
 
Self-Ejected

vivec

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Deus Ex?

The sole reason why no other game reaches its heights is simply lack of attention to detail.
 

Wayward Son

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Roguey Wasteland, anyone? Iirc one scripted scenario in NV where you can destroy a door or hack it to open it. DnD if you've got a good GM
 

Metal Hurlant

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Codex USB, 2014 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
wat? some of the most loved RPGs on this site allow for such scenarios.

Name 'em.

In the starting dungeon of BG2, if you have the Activation Stone from Rielev's room and pretend to be the master of the sewage golem, the golem will perform his cleaning and feeding duties and open all the locked doors in the centre of the dungeon.
 
Unwanted

Kalin

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Arcanum has the best system. You can lockpick or pickpocket keys to get through quietly, or go the noisy guard-attracting route and hack through with axes, blow them up with explosives or summon shit to smash them for you.
 

Unkillable Cat

LEST WE FORGET
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Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy
Are you just being difficult for the sake of being difficult?

You want some safe space to go with that microaggression? ;)

Lockpick is a necessity for a stealth approach, leaving door intact and no sign of broken. While certainly a brute force approach is refreshing, it's not always preferable, not with a bunch of guns pointing at the doorway.

For me the question (and the point of my post) is not which method is preferable, it's whether I get to choose a method at all. That's very rarely the case.

And your example isn't exactly a stellar one - if I know there's "a bunch of guns pointing" at the doorway I'm trying to get through, I'm not going to pick the lock on the door - if I have the choice I'll either blow the door down for that 'shock and awe' approach, or I find another entrance and use a stealthy approach on that one instead.
 

Wayward Son

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Unkillable Cat, I think the example was supposed to be an example of why you would take the stealthy approach and ramifications of you don't.
 

Immortal

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Successful Rogueybait is successful

Roguey gets too invested in her trolls. By page 6 she will be real talking Sawyer theory or slink off to another thread when she is stuck in a corner.

Just like Prime Junta pretends to be trolling then gets massively butt hurt and cries to DU. You need new role models.

Is the OP a troll or an idiot?

Can't it be both? :smug:
 

Damned Registrations

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And your example isn't exactly a stellar one - if I know there's "a bunch of guns pointing" at the doorway I'm trying to get through, I'm not going to pick the lock on the door - if I have the choice I'll either blow the door down for that 'shock and awe' approach, or I find another entrance and use a stealthy approach on that one instead.
This is exactly why 'stealth' is generally a pretty shitty option during an RPG. If you have a whole party with you, chances are you're facing parties of enemies as well, which makes your prospects of getting from point A to B without alerting everyone pretty much zilch, unless they're all inexplicably hiding in one room you never enter which is conveniently not in your way. More realistically, there will be multiple people at the entrance, and whether you pick the lock or smash it open, they're going to alert everyone else immediately. You can't stealthily open a door to a small room without the occupants noticing. This makes your best option for avoiding everyone rapid movement through the dungeon and killing everyone you see quickly so they never get a chance to all catch up to you at once. Sure, you might be able to have the thief move a little ways ahead without being seen as early as the main group, but at best this gives you forewarning of where you're going to get caught- you need to get into the guarded areas anyways.
 

Carrion

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And your example isn't exactly a stellar one - if I know there's "a bunch of guns pointing" at the doorway I'm trying to get through, I'm not going to pick the lock on the door - if I have the choice I'll either blow the door down for that 'shock and awe' approach, or I find another entrance and use a stealthy approach on that one instead.
This kind of thinking is something that you'll frequently have to use in tactical shooters (R.I.P.) despite the fact that those games only present you with pure combat scenarios with no such thing as "loot". In the classic Rainbow Six or SWAT games the choice between destroying a door or picking the lock is one of the most common tactical decisions you need to make. If you know that there is an enemy right behind a door, it may indeed be the best idea to set up some explosive charges and blow the door open. On the other hand, if you know that on the other side of the room there's an enemy pointing a gun at a hostage, you might want to rethink your action — blowing up the door would take care of the first guy, sure, but it'd also alert the other guys in the room to your presence, causing them to instantly aim their guns at the door you're trying to get through and perhaps kill the hostages while they're at it. Even if you removed the hostages out of the equation, charging through that single door would be extremely risky and require you to pull off some John Wayne-esque heroics to take out all of the enemies unscathed. So instead, you'll have to think of something more clever. For example, there might be another entrance that would allow you to storm the room from another direction, or perhaps even from two different directions simultaneously if you made use of both doors, but in order to reach it you'd again have to get past a locked door or two, preferably as silently as possible to not alert the enemies. If you do it silently and pick the locks, you might be able to take the enemies by surprise and mow them down easily. If the enemies hear you coming, they will be expecting you, making the encounter a lot more dangerous. Hell, one of them might even come to investigate and put a bullet into the back of your head while you're carelessly shuffling through your pockets to find more of those damn sweet explosive charges.

Of course, it's a completely different genre, but aside from the lack of loot, is a squad-based tactical shooter with close-quarters combat that far removed from a dungeon crawler, in principle? Deus Ex has of course been mentioned already, and it could be classified as an RPG based on some definition and has doors that can be either picked or blown up without making either approach redundant, because wanting to avoid attention is usually the reason you choose to pick a lock in the first place, aside from creating a more desirable route to your objective. Explosives solve many problems in Jagged Alliance 2 and several other tactical games, but in many instances it's better to use lockpicks or wire cutters to get past certain obstacles, because even though you're there to kill every enemy on the map, you don't want to start a fight until your guys are in the proper positions. Fallout, Arcanum and Underrail also have parts with similar open-ended area design, with the latter having an especially good stealth system (by RPG standards) which would keep the lockpicking skill important for certain characters even if you were able to blow up doors.

Too bad that RPGs are still mostly stuck in the "go to room, kill everything, move to next room" approach where you lose a lot of the tactical depth that is provided by good level design, which reduces some possibly very useful and interesting things like lockpicking to just serving one purpose, which at best creates an illusion of playing a particular type of character instead of actually letting you play one.
 
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laclongquan

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I will point out that Fallout2 has you climb up into a locked room by a secret way. Then you can lockpick the door to do some breaking and entering. Ditto with Fallout Tactic. Ditto with Fallout New Vegas.

Because it's not always a good idea to brute force your way through a door or a container.
 

Llama-Yak Hybrid

Wild Sheep
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The deal is to remove lockpicking all-together and merge it into another skill.

Like Silent Storm did. In Silent Storm lockpicking walls usually had more sense than lockpicking doors, lol, but it was all based on skill that was useful enough to make having engineer in your team sensible.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
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Messages
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There was at least 3 or 4 ways to open most doors in Wasteland 1. That was back in '87.
 

sullynathan

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I think they should, I liked playing Dragon age origins with the break-lock mod that allowed you to break chests but with the chance that the items broke. Divinity original sin also did something like that with destructible chest, doors and chests that can only be opened with a key.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Arcanum, fallout, even pst

I wanted specific examples. I can't recall ever wanting to invest in lockpick in Arcanum since I can just bash everything with an axe and stealing stuff from civilized areas isn't worth the investment (that is, not spending my points on things that will help me in combat). I don't recall any "tactical advantage" business.

I've never tried blowing up or breaking locks in Fallout, but it's largely a series of civilized areas so that's seemingly well enough (assuming an explosion would cause hostility as opposed to being ignored)


In Deus Ex, every character concept can pick locks, the skill only determines the amount needed, and some doors/containers are indestructible. Getting anything more than trained is a waste of points. IME it doesn't really matter if you're loud or not.

Wasteland

Even though I played Wasteland a few years ago, my mind's a blank about what my characters were like. I suppose lockpick is a skill I could have had since you have an entire party at your disposal and skills are increased by use. There's definitely no noise aspect.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
I wanted specific examples. I can't recall ever wanting to invest in lockpick in Arcanum since I can just bash everything with an axe and stealing stuff from civilized areas isn't worth the investment (that is, not spending my points on things that will help me in combat). I don't recall any "tactical advantage" business.
Several chests and locked doors in castles and civilized areas that were p. much impossible to access otherwise. Especially in tarant.
Also you didnt invest in lockpicks because you were playing a different character concept, but there were places where you definitely needed it or you simply missed the content.

I've never tried blowing up or breaking locks in Fallout, but it's largely a series of civilized areas so that's seemingly well enough (assuming an explosion would cause hostility as opposed to being ignored)
Of course it caused hostility, it was also very expensive. Lock picking was a valuable skill in that game. But the game offered plenty of alternatives to it.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Sawyerite
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Several chests and locked doors in castles and civilized areas that were p. much impossible to access otherwise. Especially in tarant.

Need to be more specific than that. What awesome things do you get that absolutely need lockpicking?
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
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Germany
Then you have a skill that absolutely no one takes except Role Players who don't care about making a less-than-optimal character.

I didn't bother with lockpicking at all in D:OS, I fireballed everything locked. Worked out fine.

How many RPGs have a key for every locked door and chest? I can't think of any off-hand.



Because in places where you're supposed to kill everyone anyway it doesn't matter.
D:OS is not an RPG.
Play some Arcanum once in a while you goddamn imbecile and tell josh to go fuck himself. his stupid PoE wasn't worth the time to download. i see no reason to care about what he says.
 

Sceptic

Arcane
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Messages
10,872
Divinity: Original Sin
Successful Rogueybait is successful
I used to hate Roguey for making the most inane and retarded trollbaits (even Andhaira and Drog put more effort into theirs) but now I hate everyone else for swallowing them so readily, hook, line and sinker.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,852
Need to be more specific than that. What awesome things do you get that absolutely need lockpicking?
Wouldnt know, i remember them because i missed them. All i know is that i couldnt get inside bates house via the cementery. Bet there was a unique interaction for doing that tho.

Successful Rogueybait is successful
I used to hate Roguey for making the most inane and retarded trollbaits (even Andhaira and Drog put more effort into theirs) but now I hate everyone else for swallowing them so readily, hook, line and sinker.
what else is there to do besides trolling or feeding the trolls?
Absolutely nothing, thats what.
 

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