Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

[Prime Junta]

Maybe they teamed up. Ondra clearly figures centrally in the story, but forging is more up Abydon's alley. Cf Woedica and Skaen.

 

[Sannom]

Ondra confirmed as villain of TWM Part 2?

That is suspicious. But the way the Eyeless are presented, it feels like a God created them but that it doesn't necessarily control them anymore.

 

[Sizzle]

Could be Abydon

Could be, but she obviously plays a pretty big role in Part 2 - her temple is almost certainly going to be to the story what Durgan's Battery was to TWM1, and the new barbarian NPC is (probably) her devotee.

Maybe they teamed up. Ondra clearly figures centrally in the story, but forging is more up Abydon's alley. Cf Woedica and Skaen.

Maybe, but I thought he was plainly in the Magran and Galawain camp, and therefore more or less opposed to the Ondra & Rymrgand alliance. But, perhaps it's all a bit more complicated, like with Skaen's allegiance.

Or maybe some god (or someone else) is trying to make it seem like she's the one to blame. As far as I can remember her from the main game (and she was one of the least fleshed out deities), she came across pretty positive, especially compared to the other ones.

 

[Sizzle]

I sort of wish this story was taking place post PoE main plot.

Why? Do you mean because it will (at least in part) reveal the true nature of the gods?

They mentioned that Ondra's temple is a place of forgetting, so there's always a chance they'll pull some "the PC got mindwiped, and forgot that bit" schtick.

 

[Dorateen]

Dwarves should get a +4 racial bonus for fighting those things.

 

[Excidium II]

I sort of wish this story was taking place post PoE main plot.

Why? Do you mean because it will (at least in part) reveal the true nature of the gods?

They mentioned that Ondra's temple is a place of forgetting, so there's always a chance they'll pull some "the PC got mindwiped, and forgot that bit" schtick.

Probably because expansions that put content in the middle of the game suck. Even more so because they decided to split it in two parts.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

Jesus that looks fucking terrifying

you mean terrifying bad? blind anorexics with pliers as a hand muh spikes and blades everywhere

 

[agris]

Is there a mod that decouples the attribute changes in PotD from the increased spawns? So we could play on Hard with the PotD attributes, for example?

 

[Roguey]

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...3706905&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=12

We now have a proper answer to the Skaen Temple question: Working as Designed ArchAngel Immortal

RE: Raedric's Hold, specifically, diving straight in the front door is meant to be very combat heavy. We try to forecast to players that choosing that approach is going to result in a lot of fighting. Going through the dungeons or sneaking in through the top can easily cut the number of fights in half.

As far as overall "trash mobs", I think the worst examples of those were in the late game and it's something we've tried to address in the 3.0 patch. We've also made a thinning pass on some of the lower levels of Od Nua and Galvino's Workshop.

The same thing applies; you can skip all those encounters by going through the back door. Pay better attention.

Additionally, Josh smacks down an anti-illusion-of-strategic-gameplay goon:

Since I've already mentioned it, I'd like to bring up XCOM, which also has Vancian casting (grenades, medkits, a few abilities) and a refresh system to match. I get to make loads of interesting strategic decisions in each mission, because it's not possible to spam grenades or be forced into a mission without rockets or whatever. A mission's enemy line-up can be a genuine challenge because it's balanced for a 100% ready squad, not a squad that might be 100% or might have used up its medkits last mission or somewhere in between. There's still rationing, but it's controlled.

Like, specifically, it's not Vancian casting that's the problem, it's Vancian casting and non-Vancian refresh; x-per-day spells next to rest-anywhere-freeform-exploration-I'll-do-whatever-quest-I-like-when-I-like. It's what 4th Edition D&D tried to address with its AEDU system.

XCOM's systems work well because each mission is self-contained. Because the IE games and their Gold Box antecedents (and PoE, of course) have a big focus on exploration and doing things in whatever meandering order you want, it's not possible to neatly bookend quests or even areas in the same way. Dungeons come the closest to capturing a similar feeling, but not quite. Backing out is less convenient in dungeons, but you can still do it. This is where a lot of the complaints about being forced to go back to town come from.

There are examples of party-based fantasy games that really focus heavily on careful resource management. Darkest Dungeon is the first one to come to mind. Its mechanics seem to borrow very heavily from Torchbearer, which has some of the most brutal grind mechanics I've seen in a TTRPG.

 

[Infinitron]

He didn't actually say anything about the Skaen Temple...

EDIT: I loled at this http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...06905&pagenumber=731&perpage=40#post456149157

 

[Roguey]

He would have mentioned the Skaen Temple as something that had its mobs thinned out had it been given that treatment. It's not like he's unaware of complaints.

were there specific areas where you thought they were especially bad

off the top of my head: od nua, the cultist temple, the island or w/e it was where you get to the point of no return

the cultist temple was by far the worst in terms of enemy glut. there were more people in there than there were in the town above.

You can bypass all those fights by choosing another entrance = he doesn't care.

 

[Immortal]

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...3706905&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=12

We now have a proper answer to the Skaen Temple question: Working as Designed ArchAngel Immortal

RE: Raedric's Hold, specifically, diving straight in the front door is meant to be very combat heavy. We try to forecast to players that choosing that approach is going to result in a lot of fighting. Going through the dungeons or sneaking in through the top can easily cut the number of fights in half.

As far as overall "trash mobs", I think the worst examples of those were in the late game and it's something we've tried to address in the 3.0 patch. We've also made a thinning pass on some of the lower levels of Od Nua and Galvino's Workshop.

Raedrics hold is one the few good examples of level design in PoE.
It was my favorite part of the game.... I've said this before.

The game spirals downwards in quality -significantly- after you first hit the player garrison. Up to that point I was having a blast.

Your quote from Josh had zero to do with Skaen Temple which suffers from complete lack of choice in how you handle it. Skaen Temple and Raedrics Hold are polar opposites.
You should try playing the game Roguey. This is the worst example of 'grabbing for straws' I've seen yet.

 

[Fairfax]

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...3706905&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=12

We now have a proper answer to the Skaen Temple question: Working as Designed ArchAngel Immortal

RE: Raedric's Hold, specifically, diving straight in the front door is meant to be very combat heavy. We try to forecast to players that choosing that approach is going to result in a lot of fighting. Going through the dungeons or sneaking in through the top can easily cut the number of fights in half.

As far as overall "trash mobs", I think the worst examples of those were in the late game and it's something we've tried to address in the 3.0 patch. We've also made a thinning pass on some of the lower levels of Od Nua and Galvino's Workshop.

Raedrics hold is one the few good examples of level design in PoE.
It was my favorite part of the game.... I've said this before.

The game spirals downwards in quality -significantly- after you first hit the player garrison. Up to that point I was having a blast.

+1

 

[Excidium II]

Yeah Raedric's was coolio.

 

[Once more unto the Codex]

Sometimes I wonder whether OE released two different versions of PoE, one for the Codex, which was absolute shit, and one for the rest of the world, which was pretty good. Luckily I was given the "rest of the world" copy.

 

[Prime Junta]

Your quote from Josh had zero to do with Skaen Temple which suffers from complete lack of choice in how you handle it.

How so?

Spoiler

There are two entrances: Trygil's tower and the skull statue.

Through the skull statue, if you have high Mechanics (naturally, or through Rituals and resting bonuses) you can go pretty much straight to the end boss while only fighting about three lonely patrolling guards. Then you have several ways of resolving the quest, some of which don't involve fighting him at all. Or you can go around fighting a few small groups of guards and untrapping traps, if your Mechanics isn't quite high enough to make it straight through.

Through Trygil's tower, there are at least three ways to get to the locked area. The shortest involves a toughish fight with traps in inconvenient locations. Longer ones have more fights but they're easier.

It doesn't have as many different approaches as Raedric's Hold, but that's about a half-dozen different approaches, plus a bunch of different resolutions as well. I.e., not a particularly good example of a dungeon with a "complete lack of choice."

 

[Ohmsquare]

Is there a mod that decouples the attribute changes in PotD from the increased spawns? So we could play on Hard with the PotD attributes, for example?

Not a mod, but you can use it this workaround which has worked for me quite well (http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83...ulty-enemy-encounters-with-potd-buffed-stats/):

1. Open console by pressing (~).
2. Type ‘Iroll20s’ (without the quotes). This command enables cheats and disables achievements.
3. Before entering any new area for the first time, open console again and type ‘Difficulty hard’. Enter the new area. The composition of enemy encounters has been generated according to the Hard difficulty rules (of course, you can use Easy or Normal too).
4. Open console again and type ‘Difficulty pathofthedamned’. You can do this anytime, even during the combat. Enemies will get buffed up stats but their numbers remain same.

It is also possible to use this tweak the other way around, i.e. high amount of enemies like on PotD but with normal stats. So far I have been using this tweak pretty extensively and did not encounter any bugs. It probably does not work on spawned enemies though.

 

[Maculo]

Raedric's Hold also came at a good point in time, where you had just enough spells as a caster, but none of the truly over-powered spells. Even then, you could trivialize the final fight with basic preparation (Repulsion Seal, Accuracy buffs, Barbarian with Firebrand Gloves), but it was entertaining.

 

[Immortal]

Your quote from Josh had zero to do with Skaen Temple which suffers from complete lack of choice in how you handle it.

How so?

Spoiler

There are two entrances: Trygil's tower and the skull statue.

Through the skull statue, if you have high Mechanics (naturally, or through Rituals and resting bonuses) you can go pretty much straight to the end boss while only fighting about three lonely patrolling guards. Then you have several ways of resolving the quest, some of which don't involve fighting him at all. Or you can go around fighting a few small groups of guards and untrapping traps, if your Mechanics isn't quite high enough to make it straight through.

Through Trygil's tower, there are at least three ways to get to the locked area. The shortest involves a toughish fight with traps in inconvenient locations. Longer ones have more fights but they're easier.

It doesn't have as many different approaches as Raedric's Hold, but that's about a half-dozen different approaches, plus a bunch of different resolutions as well. I.e., not a particularly good example of a dungeon with a "complete lack of choice."

[bullshit argument]
Oh Come on... Are you literally saying that corridor selections to the final alter room are actually meaningful choices on how to solve that dungeon?
Especially in a first play through where you don't know which room has the mcguffin?

By that logic the final dungeon of Baldurs Gate 1 had like 30 ways to possibly complete the thieves guild maze. Will you go left? Or Right? Slimes.. Or TRAPS..?
[/bullshit argument]


Skaen temple has multiple meaningful outcomes? You mean cause the alter has 3 Dialogue options at the end? Or because you can choose to rescue the girl or not?
That is standard Biowarian Choice illusion at it's finest. Those choices literally mean nothing in the grand scheme of the game.

Compare that to a open ended dungeon with 2 'bosses' (Necromancer Chick / Raedric), Costume mechanics, at least 3 entrances and multiple ways of resolving the quest.
Remember that your decisions at Raedrics hold also foreshadow a quest later on in the game if you killed him.

It's clear that Raedrics hold End to End was given the traditional Obsidian treatment and Skaens Temple was padded out as far as possible.
They aren't even comparable. Frankly, Skaen Temple is shit.



Also Lol @ Roguey brofisting your post as you attempt to make his attempt at SawyerSplaining less retarded.

 

[Sizzle]

Skaen temple has multiple meaningful outcomes? You mean cause the alter has 3 Dialogue options at the end? Or because you can choose to rescue the girl or not?

Well, you can

Spoiler

sacrifice one of your teammates to Skaen if you have a high enough Cruel disposition

, would that count as meaningful in your book?

 

[Infinitron]

Raedric's Hold is PoE's Beyond the Beef: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Beyond_the_Beef

It's hard to make an entire game like that because:

The quest is, in terms of the quantity of bug reports made by players and testers, the potentially buggiest quest in the game.

 

[Immortal]

Skaen temple has multiple meaningful outcomes? You mean cause the alter has 3 Dialogue options at the end? Or because you can choose to rescue the girl or not?

Well, you can

Spoiler

sacrifice one of your teammates to Skaen if you have a high enough Cruel disposition

, would that count as meaningful in your book?

What's the outcome? Does it matter? If I hired some asshole from the tavern and sacrifice him do I just get a stat boost?
Do I even care about my companions?

You tell me.

Raedric's Hold is PoE's Beyond the Beef: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Beyond_the_Beef

You can't have an entire game of them because:

The quest is, in terms of the quantity of bug reports made by players and testers, the potentially buggiest quest in the game.

I would trade 40 hours of Skaens Temple for 20 hours of Raedrics Hold.

 

[Prime Junta]

Immortal But they're not just different corridor selections. They're different obstacles requiring different solutions. Go through the skull door, and you'll need high Mechanics and/or untrap a lot of high-difficulty traps. Go through Trygil's tower and straight down, and you'll have to fight a nasty fight set up in a way that makes it hard for you, then walk over the bridge. Go left and down, and you'll come to a broken bridge where you'll have a CYOA to get over it.

Raedric's Hold is bigger and has more content and choices and is generally much better; I'm not disputing that. I am pointing out that Skaen's temple is a poor example of a dungeon with, and here I'm quoting you again, "complete lack of choice in how you handle it."

Two entrances. Five paths. Four different sets of obstacles. Three or more quest outcomes. That is not "complete lack of choice." It just... isn't.

(BTW, the Skaen temple was the first dungeon they made -- it didn't change at all from the first beta build to the way it is in the final game, not counting a few bugs and traps --, and Raedric's was, I believe, the last. It would be rather strange if they had learned nothing in the interim.)

 

[Immortal]

Raedric's Hold is bigger and has more content and choices and is generally much better; I'm not disputing that. I am pointing out that Skaen's temple is a poor example of a dungeon with, and here I'm quoting you again, "complete lack of choice in how you handle it."

Okay PedanticJunta.. I will concede my quote was maybe incorrect. Let me modify my quote to "complete lack of meaningful choice".. I don't consider corridor mazes / multiple transition points as meaningful choice for all the reasons I already stated.
Again.. by that logic the Subway stations in Fallout 3 or the maze in BG1 would have "300 solutions!!!!!".

This whole Fargo rational of ~Unique Experiences - No Two Games Played the Same Way~ holds no water for me. Sorry.

Raedrics Hold is a beautiful example of level design, meaingful choice and freedom of player agency to resolve an issue.
If the whole game had been that, I would be just as big a fanboy as you and little sizzle the shill over here.

 

[Sizzle]

What's the outcome?

You have one NPC less. Thought that part was pretty self-explanatory. And even if you replace the NPCs with some tavern-built custom ones, you're still missing out on their personal quests.

What's the outcome? Does it matter? If I hired some asshole from the tavern and sacrifice him do I just get a stat boost?
Do I even care about my companions?

Even though this depends on whether or not you like the NPCs, but we were talking about choice and outcome here, not about your character preferences, so, yeah, I'd say it applies when discussing actual role-playing and different consequences.