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I need an anti min-max RPG

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Ludo Lense

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Can anyone give me some examples of high lethality RPGs so min-maxers can't weasel their way out?

I know I can just say "Rocks fall, people die!" but I don't want to be antagonistic. This whole thing comes from a bad experience with Pathfinder where "that guy"...you know, the guy that spends hours pouring over source and splat-books, came with some crazy monk that had a Temple Sword and was 1-hit-kill guy.

I am leaning towards Call of Cthulhu since the creatures will kill you and succumbing to insanity is an inevitability if you keep fighting the mythos stuff.
 

Norfleet

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Paranoia. The rulebooks are above your clearance level and demonstrating knowledge of this unauthorized information is treason and punishable by death. Also, happiness is mandatory. Are you happy, CItizen?
 
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Alex

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I am not sure what you are looking for exactly, but a few games that I think might be it:

Amber: A diceless game. Note that this doesn't mean there aren't rules, just that the rules don't use random elements. Players still build a character, but the GM is the ultimate arbiter of what happens as the result of each action. It might be a bit too heavy handed, especially if used specifically to avoid the kind of behavior you mentioned. But it might still be fun, and might help get your player out of that mindset.

Advanced Fighting Fantasy: Based on the fighting fantasy books, this game is really simple. In fact, so simple, it might be impossible to realy min max it. Instead, making play interesting depends almost entirely on going outside the system. If you happen to like the old gamebooks, this is a really good option.

Old AD&D with character stable: This probably isn't what you are looking for, but I am including it just in case. Older editions of AD&D had way less customization options, but plenty of character generation options. The game was built with the assumption that each player would go through several characters, starting from scratch when hil old character died. This is why it was so random as well; each character was a kind of gamble. If you hit really high stat numbers, you might use a more interesting class, like paladin, or assassin. Or a less common race, or both! If you had two very good attributes, you could try to "go the distance" with a high level dual-class human. If you play this right, your player could have plenty of min-maxing fun, but he probably wouldn't be able to break the campaign. Also, you could get to see the look on his face when his high-level character dies.

Sandbox Camapaign: This would work with pretty much any system, though some are more or less well suited to it (old AD&D again is well suited). Basically, just throw away notions of challenge rating, of encounter design, adventure design, etc. Instead, create a location according to some internal logic. Be sure to track stuff like food, rest, time, npc morale and whatnot. In this kind of game, min-maxing is still useful, but is far from being the most important thing. It doesn't matter if your character can dish out 100 points of damage per round. Heck, a powder keg probably could do that as well. But if you starve, or get a disease for sleeping in the open, or end up in a noble's shit list, that powerful attack won't matter any. Basically, this kind of game makes those things without very hard rules a lot more important. Consider things like search patrols, mass combat, the level of noise the players are making, monster lairs, etc. If the players don't play smartly, they will be overwhelmed, no matter how powerful they are. This mode of play is a bit hard on the GM, though.

Hackmaster: Basically, this is both earlier options mixed. And you play exactly like the guys in the Knights of the Dinner Table comic strips. It won't make the player stop min-maxing, but it will give him a lot to aim for with his min-maxing!

Traveller: The character creation is very random (although you do exert some control), and after created, PCs evolve very slowly or not at all. This is one of the first science fiction games ever published, and it has nice rules to generate random space sectors as you explore the galaxy (as well as several other random stuff).

Runequest: Another fantasy game, this uses the setting of Glorantha, the same one as the King of Dragon Pass game. Runequest's PCs never get to be as powerful as, say, D&D PCs. But what power they amass is usually linked to cults where they can learn to use magic as well as obtain temporal power. So, if your player wants to min-max, he can't just pick options from books. He must actually find people willing to teach him stuff and prove himself to those people. The system this game uses was the basis of several Chaosium games, including Call of C'thulhu.
 

Mustawd

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I'm no P&P'er, but I always heard GURPS is ultra lethal?

*shrug*
 

Norfleet

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Traveller: The character creation is very random (although you do exert some control), and after created, PCs evolve very slowly or not at all. This is one of the first science fiction games ever published, and it has nice rules to generate random space sectors as you explore the galaxy (as well as several other random stuff).
I recall the best part about this game's character generation system is the ability to die during it.
 

Alex

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Traveller: The character creation is very random (although you do exert some control), and after created, PCs evolve very slowly or not at all. This is one of the first science fiction games ever published, and it has nice rules to generate random space sectors as you explore the galaxy (as well as several other random stuff).
I recall the best part about this game's character generation system is the ability to die during it.

The character creation works by going through "steps" in the character's life. Did he go to college? Did he enlist in the military? Was he accepted? Did he participate in wars in that year? Depending on what career you choose, you will roll to see if any important events happen in the PC's life. If you choose a military career (and the game, especially in the earlier editions, had a slant towards those), you can end up being wounded or even killed during a battle. You could also, however, end up receiving a medal, being promoted and receiving some fat bonus when you "muster out".
 

Norfleet

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Yes, I remember that. I used to have a program that let you play this, the character generation was a game in and of itself. I feel like running this at a tabletop session may end up with a game of people just playing the character generator all day as character after character dies, though. At least you can create an illustrious collection of dead relatives for your finally surviving character.
 

Alex

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Yes, I remember that. I used to have a program that let you play this, the character generation was a game in and of itself. I feel like running this at a tabletop session may end up with a game of people just playing the character generator all day as character after character dies, though. At least you can create an illustrious collection of dead relatives for your finally surviving character.

Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to play Traveller yet. But going by the last (5th) edition, dying during char-gen seems to be uncommon. At least if you don't take many unnecessary risks... oh!

Well, it would be just like when you begin a game of wizardry or Might and Magic, where you just keep rolling until you are happy with the result, I guess.
 

Norfleet

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He's trying to defeat min-maxers. A character generation system about creating uber-characters through a legally sanctioned human wave attack system IS NOT THE ANSWER.

I'm telling you, the answer is Paranoia.
 
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Ludo Lense

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Got some good answers. Particularly Traveller.

I usually do some sort of homebrew stuff anyway. In the sense that I like Sandbox style "Keep on the Borderlands" campaigns.

I am fine with creating powerful chars but it isn't fun when you 1-hit-kill the villain or the giant or w/e. Also power players generally hate it when the DM does it.

My party did something stupid: A duke's son came out of the tavern drunk and challenged them to a fight, with great intelligence the munchkin actually decapitated him in one blow. They skipped town fast obviously but the duke hired really expensive assassins that shadowed them and when they attacked they had a plan to counter the party. Obviously they got demolished pretty fast. The amount of whining I got from "HOW WERE WE SUPPOSED TO WIN!?!? It wasn't balanced!" was hilarious (they didn't die, the duke wanted them skinned alive but stuff happened and they escaped).
 

Neanderthal

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Any game system can work to be as hard as balls, you've just gotta play enemy as smart, all this standing toe to toe an hackin at each other, why the fuck would anybody do that? I've had Kobolds beat a 5th lvl party, simply by using environment, poisons, missile weapons, scouts an plenty o traps. Lull your players into a false sense o security wi a few easy encounters an then drop the fucking hammer while they're all cocky an big headed.
 

Dreaad

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Can anyone give me some examples of high lethality RPGs so min-maxers can't weasel their way out?

I know I can just say "Rocks fall, people die!" but I don't want to be antagonistic. This whole thing comes from a bad experience with Pathfinder where "that guy"...you know, the guy that spends hours pouring over source and splat-books, came with some crazy monk that had a Temple Sword and was 1-hit-kill guy.

I am leaning towards Call of Cthulhu since the creatures will kill you and succumbing to insanity is an inevitability if you keep fighting the mythos stuff.
Call of Cthulhu Delta Green is your best bet. Generally games end because all the protagonists die or go crazy :lol: sometimes it takes a few secession, but in the end I've never had any survivors.
 

Helly

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Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Dungeon. Crawl. Classics.

The

End.

Download the beta rules (pretty close approximation of how the end product turned out)
http://www.goodman-games.com/downloads/DCCRPGBeta060811.pdf
This.
Do a campaign starting with a 0-level funnel and hear the lamentations of your players as they burn their luck, accumulate corruption and lose body parts in grimtooth's traps.

Also, the rulebook is cheap, massive and full of great AD&D style illustrations.
 
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Night Goat

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This whole thing comes from a bad experience with Pathfinder where "that guy"...you know, the guy that spends hours pouring over source and splat-books, came with some crazy monk that had a Temple Sword and was 1-hit-kill guy.
A monk. The joke class. The weakest class in the game, at every level. That is what was vexing you? Maybe you're just not cut out for GMing.
 

Xathrodox86

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Savage Worlds and WFRP are a good idea. Also certain oWoD systems, like the ones that concentrate on mortals (Project: Twilight, H: TR and Hunters hunted).
 
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Ludo Lense

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This whole thing comes from a bad experience with Pathfinder where "that guy"...you know, the guy that spends hours pouring over source and splat-books, came with some crazy monk that had a Temple Sword and was 1-hit-kill guy.
A monk. The joke class. The weakest class in the game, at every level. That is what was vexing you? Maybe you're just not cut out for GMing.

All of his feats were from splat books. He was basically doing the full attack but with the temple sword and a crit build. Also this obviously wasn't the first time this happened.
 

HotSnack

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Saw the thread title on the frontpage, and thought this was going to be about :balance:
 
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Ludo Lense

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Well things shuffled and tumbled which resulted in a new group. Choose Deadlands classic because I neved DM'ed there. That combat tho....

The fact that you need to roleplay the edges and hindrances for me to give you chips is a pretty ingenious way of discouraging min maxing stuff.
 

Havoc

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High lethality? No min-max? Honor & Blood! Romanticized Samurai Japan. Katana kills, like that. One success needed to announce "he be dead".
 

DavidBVal

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WFRP 1st edition.

newbie warrior has 30% to hit, and 8hp. Most epic templar in the world has a 60% to hit and 16hp. Damage is a D6 and every 6 can be a critical.

(needs some houseruling with Toughness and additional attacks however).

If you love D&D, 5th edition is not as min-maxable, or rather, minmaxing yields less benefits.
 
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Ludo Lense

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WFRP 1st edition.

newbie warrior has 30% to hit, and 8hp. Most epic templar in the world has a 60% to hit and 16hp. Damage is a D6 and every 6 can be a critical.

(needs some houseruling with Toughness and additional attacks however).

If you love D&D, 5th edition is not as min-maxable, or rather, minmaxing yields less benefits.

That group dissolved so this thread is just for kicks now. Also I've had enough D&D through pathfinder. WFRP sounds interesting but I heavily dislike Warhammer (both 40k and fantasy). They are grimdark to the point of feeling juvenile, so I probably wouldn't have fun (I did play some Dark Heresy but the DM was cool and we just fought some greedy mechanicus guys, that were corrupt in the material sense of the word).

With the new group I have we went with Deadlands classic since a) I really like the setting b) While you cand spend fate points to negate damage, it is still recommended to avoid combat since a Winchester shot to the head will kill you.
 

oscar

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Warhammer Fantasy is a lot less grimdark (or was, the lore got increasingly retarded). Not exactly high fantasy but the Empire feels like it has a much better chance than the Imperium (reasonably competent leadership, technologically evolving, less super doom impossible threats like the Tyranids, friendly states like Brettonia and Kislev).

Indeed I liked how some of the lore books hinted that Chaos for the Empire was shifting from axe wielding frontier barbarians to a French Revolution type scenario of internal destabilising against the increasingly complacent and decadent nobility.
 

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