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Sierra King's Quest 8: Mask of Eternity in retrospect

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Anyone else feel, with hindsight, this was a pretty good game? It had an interesting enough storyline, gave a very open world (considering it came out in 1998, we weren't really in the age of GTA-style sandbox games), had a great score and good writing, and while the combat system wasn't anywhere near as good as in a true RPG, it was fun enough for an average adventurer, but also still included tons of fetch quest adventure elements. KQ8 has always been one of my personal favorite KQ's.
 
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I haven't played it in a good 10 years, but I've been toying with the idea of giving it another playthrough. I'll probably get to it before the end of the year and put my thoughts up here.

I will say that I was extremely unimpressed with it the two times I played it.
 

Sceptic

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Divinity: Original Sin
The only real problems with KQ8 were that it was pure franchise rape and that it was very derivative (you could see them as the same problem, really). Otherwise. if taken as a game called "Mask of Eternity" that had nothing to do with Sierra adventure games, it wasn't bad at all, as far as action RPGs go. The writing was pretty bad actually, the "Ultima-English" worked in Ultima but it really doesn't in a full-voiced game like this and makes everything sound stupid.

The problem with comparing it to other KQs is that there's nothing to compare because it has absolutely nothing to do gameplay-wise with the rest of the series, or even lore-wise other than some irrelevant minor references. So naturally it'll compare very poorly as a traditional adventure game because it isn't one. I don't see the point in such an exercise though, it's like trying to compare STALKER, Stalker and Roadside Picnic and coming to the conclusions Stalker is a bad computer game and STALKER is a worse book than Roadside Picnic.
 
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The only real problems with KQ8 were that it was pure franchise rape and that it was very derivative (you could see them as the same problem, really). Otherwise. if taken as a game called "Mask of Eternity" that had nothing to do with Sierra adventure games, it wasn't bad at all, as far as action RPGs go. The writing was pretty bad actually, the "Ultima-English" worked in Ultima but it really doesn't in a full-voiced game like this and makes everything sound stupid.

The problem with comparing it to other KQs is that there's nothing to compare because it has absolutely nothing to do gameplay-wise with the rest of the series, or even lore-wise other than some irrelevant minor references. So naturally it'll compare very poorly as a traditional adventure game because it isn't one. I don't see the point in such an exercise though, it's like trying to compare STALKER, Stalker and Roadside Picnic and coming to the conclusions Stalker is a bad computer game and STALKER is a worse book than Roadside Picnic.

I don't think it was franchise rape to be honest. It was a nice take on an old (at the time perceived to be) tired franchise. I mean, look, I love the KQ games, but from an objective standpoint, they don't hold up well at all - gameplay wise or tone wise - they're as cheesy as most stuff that came out in the late 80s/early 90s....Mask of Eternity, though a departure, has aged much better, at least in terms of the medium. It wasn't like a breathtaking masterpiece, but (IMO) it's better than a lot of the games in the series. No cheese.
 

Haraldur

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I don't think it was franchise rape to be honest. It was a nice take on an old (at the time perceived to be) tired franchise. I mean, look, I love the KQ games, but from an objective standpoint, they don't hold up well at all - gameplay wise or tone wise - they're as cheesy as most stuff that came out in the late 80s/early 90s....Mask of Eternity, though a departure, has aged much better, at least in terms of the medium. It wasn't like a breathtaking masterpiece, but (IMO) it's better than a lot of the games in the series. No cheese.

This is what spin-offs and spin-off series are for. They tend to help in avoiding upsetting people. If the original Heroes of Might and Magic had been Might and Magic 6/whatever, that would likely have ruffled some feathers, with one of the better reasons being this: if Might and Magic 6 is successful (and perhaps even if it is not!), we might never get a game like Might and Magic 5 again! In real life, this is one of the (many, I am told) problems with Fallout 3: the Fallout series we once knew and loved was killed by Fallout 3; indeed, the Fallout series is now effectively dead to me, though, if people keep praising it for the next few years, I might eventually try New Vegas.

Sequels should follow from, continue, develop and/or improve-upon the original. When doing something significantly different, one should make a spin-off.

Regarding King's Quest: I have only played King's Quest VI, which I enjoyed. I would quite happily play another game like that one, though I expect the wait for such a game to be very long. I suspect that the gameplay changes of KQ8 killed it, with KQ8 killed by its own relative lack of quality (from what I have been told), and the series with it (until recently). I suppose that KQ8 would have been better as a spin-off (wasn't the relatively successful SWAT series of tactical shooters a spin-off from the relatively successful Police Quest adventure game series?) or as another "Quest" title, to go with King's Quest, Space Quest, Police Quest, Quest for Glory and so on -- I am sure that, with a little effort, a decent name could have been found. Fantasy Quest. Dungeon Quest. Knight Quest. Quest for Loot. Whatever -- I know very little about the game.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Does the OP have some sort of quota where when he stop fanboying for one bad game he to choose another one in its place?

indeed, the Fallout series is now effectively dead to me, though, if people keep praising it for the next few years, I might eventually try New Vegas.

It's been five years already, man. Are you saving it for your retirement?
 

Haraldur

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It's been five years already, man. Are you saving it for your retirement?

I have a huge backlog of games from the '90s and early 2000s that I missed. I am in no hurry -- I am in the middle of my first playthrough of Thief 2. If, ten years after its release, New Vegas seems to have stood the test of time, as Thief 2 has, then why not? I tend not to play new games*, and I still consider New Vegas (and Fallout 3) as "new". I still haven't played Homeworld, Duke Nukem 3D (or Blood or Shadow Warrior), SMT:Nocturne, HoMM3, FFT, The Ur-Quan Masters nor Betrayal at Krondor yet, and that is only the top of my (occasionally reordered) list. Does New Vegas warrant coming before many of them**?

*I have played 8 "commercial"/AAA-ish/non-indie-non-FOSS-non-casual games that were released since the beginning of 2010, and completed only 2, both sequels of older games: Portal 2 (disappointing -- the original was far too linear and they made the sequel worse, but, then, it seems Valve does not make the kind of game I like) and Disgaea 4 (like the previous games, but with nicer graphics and perhaps even slightly less annoying a story and characters).

**Yes, I know that New Vegas is higher than BaK and The Ur-Quan Masters on the RPGCodex top 70 list, but new games tend to do disproportionately well in polls (fresher in the memory?) and UQM is of disputed RPG-status.
 
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I'm a pretty big advocate of NV, but BaK and SC2 both get higher marks from me.

The rest of your backlog (except SMT, never played any of those) is in the "meh, it's pretty good I guess" category for me, but I'm not a huge fan of any of their respective genres so ymmv.
 

pippin

Guest
I remember playing the demo and being... confused, more than anything else. It was weird to be able to navigate in this land, but the overall grimdark look of the world wasn't the usual KQ experience. The game is still resting in my GOG account, I might re install it some time soon.
Roberta Williams was quite supportive of this game, just as LB supported U9.

Bonus track:

 
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This is what spin-offs and spin-off series are for. They tend to help in avoiding upsetting people. If the original Heroes of Might and Magic had been Might and Magic 6/whatever, that would likely have ruffled some feathers, with one of the better reasons being this: if Might and Magic 6 is successful (and perhaps even if it is not!), we might never get a game like Might and Magic 5 again! In real life, this is one of the (many, I am told) problems with Fallout 3: the Fallout series we once knew and loved was killed by Fallout 3; indeed, the Fallout series is now effectively dead to me, though, if people keep praising it for the next few years, I might eventually try New Vegas.

Sequels should follow from, continue, develop and/or improve-upon the original. When doing something significantly different, one should make a spin-off.

Regarding King's Quest: I have only played King's Quest VI, which I enjoyed. I would quite happily play another game like that one, though I expect the wait for such a game to be very long. I suspect that the gameplay changes of KQ8 killed it, with KQ8 killed by its own relative lack of quality (from what I have been told), and the series with it (until recently). I suppose that KQ8 would have been better as a spin-off (wasn't the relatively successful SWAT series of tactical shooters a spin-off from the relatively successful Police Quest adventure game series?) or as another "Quest" title, to go with King's Quest, Space Quest, Police Quest, Quest for Glory and so on -- I am sure that, with a little effort, a decent name could have been found. Fantasy Quest. Dungeon Quest. Knight Quest. Quest for Loot. Whatever -- I know very little about the game.

To be fair, the game was originally intended by Roberta Williams as a spin-off. It was called "Mask of Eternity" (sans the KQ logo) in marketing and promo stuff until after Sierra was sold, after which the suits forced a lot of stuff on her - she even wanted her name taken off the project at one point until some 'token changes' were made to placate her. The game, as released, wasn't the game she wanted. Two or three whole worlds were cut, multiple characters were either cut, or merged into one; more violence was added to the final product than originally intended (Roberta intended the game's violence to mainly be 7 bosses. Even the character's name and look were changed multiple times as was his backstory, from a fully developed backstory which had Biblical undertones to just being a random dude. The bulk of the game would be typical King's Questy exploring, just in a sandbox 3D world). Even the initial box-art/concept box art of the game indicated it was a spin-off, just set in the KQ-verse:
Earlymaskconceptart.jpg

Maskofeternitypromo2.png

Even later box-art concepts minimized the KQ logo in comparison to the Mask of Eternity title:
kq8_early.jpg


Even during final release, it wasn't called King's Quest VIII: Mask of Eternity. Just King's Quest: Mask of Eternity, indicating it wasn't meant to be a direct sequel:
King's_Quest_-_Mask_of_Eternity_Coverart.jpg


The initial Connor character was named Connor Mac Lyrr, who was the son of a fisherman. Thirty years before the game took place, he was touched at birth by a piece of the Mask of Eternity, which marked him as the Chosen One basically. Another idea she had was that, in the process of the Mask being broken turning everyone into stone, Connor would be a statue of a fallen hero who would be turned to life by the same magic, and would at the end become 'real' as a reward for saving the day. In the final product, he was just a random Tanner/peasant who is touched by the Mask as it breaks, with the Mask 'choosing' him in that moment to be its champion.

The initial concepts of Connor even looked cooler than the final product:
Riveroflava.JPG

Farmhouse2.jpg

Connorconcept.JPG


vs.
kingsquest8.0.jpg


Daventry itself, in Roberta's early versions of the game, looked like the beautiful and lush Daventry shown in the other games:
latest


as opposed to the final product:

Foto+Kings+Quest:+Mask+of+Eternity.jpg
 
Last edited:

pippin

Guest
Another idea she had was that, in the process of the Mask being broken turning everyone into stone, Connor would be a statue of a fallen hero who would be turned to life by the same magic, and would at the end become 'real' as a reward for saving the day.

So it was basically Pinocchio?
I don't know how troubled the development of this game was. If anything, it was kinda destined to be some kind of mess, since, much like Ultima 9, they were going into unfamiliar territories with these projects. My guess is that the teams behind these games were made of people who were too old to adjust themselves to the changes happening in gaming during those years or too young to be technically proficient with the new technologies. Mask of the Eternity is still a somewhat "different" product, King's Quest 7 already was different than the previous games even if not as dramatically as this was, but Ultima 9 ended up contradicting almost everything the series was supposed to be about.
 
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So it was basically Pinocchio?
I don't know how troubled the development of this game was. If anything, it was kinda destined to be some kind of mess, since, much like Ultima 9, they were going into unfamiliar territories with these projects. My guess is that the teams behind these games were made of people who were too old to adjust themselves to the changes happening in gaming during those years or too young to be technically proficient with the new technologies. Mask of the Eternity is still a somewhat "different" product, King's Quest 7 already was different than the previous games even if not as dramatically as this was, but Ultima 9 ended up contradicting almost everything the series was supposed to be about.

Well the entire idea behind KQ is copping fairy tales...
What happened was:

Ken & Roberta Williams ran Sierra until 1996, when Ken sold the company. While Ken was at the helm, Roberta had creative control. Mask entered development in '95 before the company was sold, Sierra was sold in July 1996 and Ken left right after. After he left, Roberta's vision and creative control became diluted. The people put in charge of Sierra were religious nuts who tried to take the violence out of the game. Meanwhile, development of the game's 3D engine was being leveraged at one Sierra studio called Dynamix, while development of the game itself was being done at another Sierra studio in Washington. Dynamix fell behind schedule, which meant Sierra had to develop their own engine totally on the fly. This (as well as suits pressuring Roberta) led to a number of things being cut, and Roberta at one point wanted her name off the project. The game ultimately took 3 million dollars to produce over a 3 year period. In the end, the technology was there, Roberta was still young enough to adjust...Mask was a very very proficient 1998 action-RPG...It's only reviled because it doesn't work as a KQ game. But divorce KQ from it and you have an A+ game.
 

Lambonius

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I tried replaying it recently. I don't think it holds up nearly as well as you're making it out to. Literally every aspect of it is clunky and underdeveloped, especially in hindsight. The story is practically non-existent. The classic KQ games hold up because of their cleverness, puzzles, story, and worlds. Mask of Eternity has pretty much none of those things.

That said, I quite liked it in its day. It didn't deserve the flack it got. But no, it really does not hold up as an enjoyable game by today's standards.
 
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I tried replaying it recently. I don't think it holds up nearly as well as you're making it out to. Literally every aspect of it is clunky and underdeveloped, especially in hindsight. The story is practically non-existent. The classic KQ games hold up because of their cleverness, puzzles, story, and worlds. Mask of Eternity has pretty much none of those things.

That said, I quite liked it in its day. It didn't deserve the flack it got. But no, it really does not hold up as an enjoyable game by today's standards.

Outside of VI the KQ games really had no stories. They had a basic story which served to string together puzzles.
I think the worlds of KQ8 are interesting, and it is cleverif you know a bit about some obscure mythologies.
 

Lambonius

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Outside of VI the KQ games really had no stories.

That's not true at all. At the very least, 3-7 had clear narratives driving every element of the gameplay, and on top of that they had varying levels of environmental storytelling (especially 5-7) in their backgrounds that made the worlds feel like real, flesh-out places.
 
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I'm doubling down on my love of this game. This game had all the potential in the world, if not for executive meddling, to be the one true epic in the KQ series. It moved the series away from fantasy tropes which KQ6 and 7 had been taking it down, back to folktales and mythology; it also moved the series in a darker, more mature direction without Jane Jensen's adolescent fanfic style and no mushy romance plot. It had blood, guts, violence and lots of intricate nods to pretty obscure mythology, and at the heart of it was an epic story, if not as world-spanning as RPGs such as Baldur's Gate. Roberta herself on the game's plot and ideas:

"Mask of Eternity is about spirituality: what is means now and through the ages and where people have searched for it. As you go through the game, you sense that Connor is looking for his own meaning and discover the game's main themes: truth, light and order. Puzzles in the game revolve around these themes. For instance, the City of the Dead's theme is truth. When he reaches this section of the world, Connor is tested and, if successful, will be affirmed that he is the deliverer who will bring truth back to Daventry.

The mask stands for the all-powerful being, the creator. The mask is sun-like and, in many religions, the sun represents God. In most religions, like the sun itself, you never can look directly at the creator unless you become immortal. There are certain places in the game's quest - obstacles, puzzles, interactions with guardians that you meet - where the player is trying to accomplish that feat. It's all integrated into the story in such a way that people who know what to look for will understand the overall quest."

and

"I have been reading with interest all of the various comments that everybody has had about KQ8 (Mask of Eternity). I find it interesting that everybody has their own ideas about what King's Quest IS. And everybody seems to have a bit different idea. It seems, on this board, anyway, that quite a few people have the idea that King's Quest is (or should be) non-violent...no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And it must be cute, funny, have fairytales in it, and have lots of puzzles and inventory objects. First of all, I have to say that King's Quest comes from ME and each one is different and has its own flavor. Some have a darker tone, and others have a lighter tone. Some touch upon violence, and some don't. King's Quest reflects the mood that I am in when I go to tackle another one.

King's Quest really is a reflection of me and how I'm feeling about the subject and upon the reference material I am using and how I approach the subject. Basically, King's Quest comes from me and my heart and it always isn't going to be exactly the same, because I'm not always exactly the same, and I, like most people, feel a need for a change of pace and a sense of moving forward and of trying and experiencing something new. With KQ7, I was in a "Disney-esque" mood. Some people really liked it, others didn't. Earlier King's Quest's reflected my moods during those times: KQ3 was very dark, and it utilized lots of magic and magic spells with the basic idea of finding ingredients for "black magic" spells and then casting those spells. (Certain religious groups were upset with me over that one!) KQ1 certainly had violence. Sir Graham had a dagger and could kill the dragon (and it didn't get you "stuck," by the way, if you did so), and you could also kill the goat. It's true that I also had non-violent ways of dealing with those situations, but, that's because I chose to handle it that way for that particular game. I've gotten into trouble over the years for all the various ways that my main characters can "die." And they die a lot! I am known for changing course a lot, and changing my style a lot. I like change, and I like to keep people guessing. KQ7 felt very Disney-esque, and I felt like doing something different for KQ8 but yet, still keeping a "King's Quest" feel to the game. Each game in the King's Quest family has been different. Almost each time I do a new King's Quest, people get up in arms and say it's going to be "different" and won't feel right. Yet, each time, it DOES wind up feeling like King's Quest but each in its own way...and people just kind of KNOW that when they are playing it.

That's because I know, in my heart, and what I am feeling, that it is, indeed, King's Quest. The components that make a King's Quest are (in my mind, anyway and since I am the creator of the series, I guess that holds some weight): A land, or lands, of high fantasy; fantasy creatures from myth, legends, and/or fairytales both good and bad; situations to be found in those same types of stories; a "quest" type story; a calamity in the land with one "hero" to "save the kingdom"; a story of the "good" hero against the "evil" bad guy; a story that everyone can relate to, i.e., a "reason" for having the hero go out and risk his or her life for "saving the kingdom"; interesting worlds to explore; high interactivity; interesting characters; great animation; great visuals and music. Within that general framework, I feel that I can have some "leeway" to accomplish those tasks. In the case of KQ8 I chose to give this game more of a "Tolkien-esque" feel rather than a "Disney-esque" feel. But each of the above elements is true for KQ8 as they were for KQ1 through 7. KQ8 indeed has a story, actually, a much more profound story than prior King's Quests. It is a new telling of the ultimate "quest" the quest for the most powerful, spiritual, benevolent item of all; the Mask of Eternity.

This story takes its cue from two sources: the Quest for the Grail, and the Christian story of the struggle between God and Lucifer. When we say that the story is very dark that's really not true; it's just that the story is more profound and seriously looks at the struggle between good and evil. Rather than taking a bubbly, Disney view of good and evil, I chose to look at the struggle between good and evil from a more serious, traditional, almost spiritual, viewpoint. If you look at the traditional stories of the Grail and even in past Christian legend, you find that it is not light-hearted, gooey, and bubbly. Those stories are filled with conflict, peril, finding ones own morality, proving oneself a hero by overcoming evil creatures of Chaos, but yet proving oneself virtuous and good with all things good. That is the theme with this game. Connor is indeed a new character within the world of Daventry. Currently, he has no connection to King Graham and his family, but that doesn't mean that King Graham is not aware of him...and what he's going to do to help Daventry. This is, instead, a story of Connor and a story of how one young man of "common" background can rise to the situation and prove himself to be the true hero which can save the world. It is the traditional story of the young "initiate" who becomes stronger through proving his mettle, his virtue, surviving perils, overcoming evil and in the end can even conquer the ultimate evil. By doing so, he will restore the land and all of the people, and good creatures and animals within it. The Mask of Eternity is the "key." It is the source of all Power, all Order, all Truth, and all Light. It belongs in its place in the "Realm of the Sun." It has been broken into five pieces and distributed throughout the world. A mysterious evil (guy) has destroyed it and taken over the Realm of the Sun. Darkness has now settled over the land and all people (mortals) have been turned to stone, while creatures of darkness have risen from the very cracks and crevices of the earth at the instigation of this evil guy.


Now Chaos reigns in all the various regions of the world: In Daventry (where all people have been turned to stone, including King Graham and his family); in the Dimension of Death (where even the Judge of the Dead has lost control of his guards and the souls); in the swamp (where the evil swamp witch has poisoned the swamp water and has all the good swamp creatures in her thrall); in the underground Realm of the Gnomes (where the industrious gnomes are willing to sell you items to help in your quest, but have also lost some control to the rock demons and an evil dragon); in the Barrens (where the trading post dwarfling has lost his "business" to the predations of an evil basilisk and the savagemen block your way to the Frosty Mountains); in the Frosty Mountains (where travel is impossible without the commandeering the controls of a flying crystal dragon, and the snow nymphs need relief from the evil Ice Lord); and finally in the Realm of the Sun (where the bad guy has taken over the domain of the Archons and the Mask of Eternity....this bad guy, the ultimate source of the terrible evil and darkness which has overcome the world).

Connor must overcome all of these problems while recovering the pieces of the Mask and returning the Mask (in whole) back to its realm to its altar. Not until it has been returned will green and light return to the world. Not until then will the Realm of the Sun "shine" again and the waters flow."

A lot better than the storybook, Princess Bride-copping, dumbed down cute-for-kiddies stupid humor and flat morality of the recent episodic Odd Gentleman abortion, or the Twilight-inspired, emo teen fantasy wank that is The Silver Lining.
 
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Oh come on, you really think it was worse than the new game?
You could also argue Fallout 3 isn't as bad as Fallout 4* but... does it actually matter?

* speaking in hypotheticals, I've no idea what FO4 is like

Well, I've never played a Fallout game to be honest (any of them). But I actually like KQ8 a lot better than most of the KQ games. Especially this cheesy, childish, ultra shit new one.
 
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Oh come on, you really think it was worse than the new game? At least it had some heart to it and wasn't a rip-off of an '80s movie.

Haha, I just don't think it was very good at all - in either theme or execution.


Bt

If you leave the 'it clashes with the tone of the previous games' thing at the door I think it's a lot like KQ5 - Has that whole 'epic journey' feel about it. And the stakes are much higher in that you don't just have to save a family, or a princess in a tower, but the whole world.
 

Aeschylus

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
It was slightly better than it was given credit for, but ultimately it was still mediocre even for what it was (a poorly designed action game).
I can remember first playing it, and thinking that it was moderately surprising that it wasn't the vicious rape of the franchise that I was expecting, but ultimately it was just a banal action game with uninteresting lever-pulling puzzles thrown in and half-hearted RPG mechanics to boot.
So yeah, Korgoth is a mediocre troll, basically.
 
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The problem was all of the cut stuff and the timing as well as other constraints. Read one day through the making of it wiki. It's very enlightening.
 

Blackthorne

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I don't think even a magic handjob machine could have saved that flying turd, even from early development.


Bt
 

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