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Vault Dweller, when is Age of Decadence's "skill plateau moment"?

Vault Dweller

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Pretty much. Papa Mole says that you can play the IG as a fighter or a diplomat (which to me is the very essence of role-playing) but he refuses to accept it because the fighter path in a military faction gets better reward and treatment.
 

Tigranes

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I think I can deal with that, but even desperate scumbags might have different end visions for the world ("I want this town to survive and this faction to take over.").

AOD supports different factions winning more than almost any other RPG, because the entirety of Teron is built around not "one story" but "that week, X, Y and Z happened. Now look at it from the viewpoint of 5-6 different factions, and influence who profits and who dies."

What are you doing asking random stupid questions every 10 minutes? Just go play for yourself. (If you have already, Go 2 Tiles Back To: What are you doing asking random stupid questions?)
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I often ask questions less for myself and more to help focus the discussion on things I find interesting/important that I think are being glossed over. It can be helpful for whoever's going to do our review.
 

likaq

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(...)Talking about Miltiades situation, for example - by helping him, you cause a lot of harm to the world so best option is to kill him ASAP; but why would you do that? You miss out on xps and there's no reward for killing him.
(...)
And, well, the diplomatic rewards absolutely can't compare with the fighter ones. You get worse training, worse attitude and worst treatment from other NPCs. Same is, for example the bandit camp & aurellian outpost - solving them peacefully is not as profitable as killing them and it also causes a serious issue later on.
(...)
And, well, if fighting always leads to better rewards, why do you need a fighter who can talk?
(...)
Especially charisma - charisma is a total crap stat for non-pure speakers.

Are you saying that every path in every faction should be equal reward-wise?
And that every stat should be equally useful for every build?

Are you saing that AoD is not perfectly balanced?

Nice to meet you Joshua Eric Sawyer.
 

Darth Roxor

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Does AoD have degrees of success and failure? I've played the demo long ago but I can't remember any, and I think people would complain a lot less about this game if the skillchecks weren't just completely binary WIN OR DIE.
 

Eirikur

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Does AoD have degrees of success and failure? I've played the demo long ago but I can't remember any, and I think people would complain a lot less about this game if the skillchecks weren't just completely binary WIN OR DIE.

 

Vault Dweller

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Does AoD have degrees of success and failure? I've played the demo long ago but I can't remember any, and I think people would complain a lot less about this game if the skillchecks weren't just completely binary WIN OR DIE.
First, there are a few 3-state checks where applicable. Second, rumors that you die if you pick the "wrong option" are greatly exaggerated.
 

Tigranes

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I think that's one area where things have gotten better since early days as more content was added, and ideally its an area where you'd get really interesting stuff happening with a bigger team and budget.

The best example is the merchant questline, where you can use talkie-skills to butter up the gate guards, a combination of streetwise and sneak to get the document off Flavius, some alternative set of skills (can't remember now) to forge the document, impersonate/steal to walk up to the caravan, all for a single objective in the quest chain, with different shades of outcomes.

The assassin questline also has interesting options, e.g. sneak to get away from the scene or impersonate and optionally critical strike (and you'd think any good assassin has at least one of those two skill sets).

I haven't tried the thief questline in a couple of years, but the controversy back then was that a purely burglar-ish thief will be pressed into open combat by Teron's end.
 
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Lurker King

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Playing a cRPG is the equivalent of having various sessions with a very restrictive, but in some cases, very talented (Avellone, Tim Cain, etc.) game master. You don’t have the freedom to do anything you want, you can’t interpret shit, but you still got stats, skills, combat systems, dice rolls (automatic), classes (in some cases), items and some choices (yep, action games are not cRPGs). The game master of Age of Decadence is a harsh motherfucker, but he is fair and knows how to fill a world with believe characters, interesting events, tough encounters. In fact, he gives more importance to stats, skills and choices than any other game of the genre.

Cheers for your wall of text, but you are talking out of your hat and you could be more direct to the point. Let us cut to the chase. When you say “I don’t want to be forced to reroll” all you really saying is “I don’t want to die frequently”. When you say “I don’t to want to worry of whether my build is viable” what you really mean is “You don’t want to make an inefficient build and be punished for it”. Others complaints are obviously misinformed and suggest that you never played the game. The idea that a character without lockpicking or steal skills will have subpar gear and no money is simply false.
The best armor in the entire game can be obtained by either talking or fighting.
The assumption that the “problems” of the game could be overcome by the capacity to control 5 PCs is false, since it all amounts to the way the game world would be designed around a party. The human factor here are assumptions about how a cRPG should be. They are not sacrosanct and uncontroversial. In fact, they rest almost entirely on habit, repetition and lack of imagination, or maybe just the lack of energy to try new things. Once you get over your preconceptions, and start playing the game the way is intend, all this unease feeling will go away.

Edgy morons like you don't help this industry.

Look, if you want to convince others that the game should be easier and less strict about SPs allocation, you should just come out in the open and say it. There is nothing wrong with that. Who knows about this stuff, right? Maybe you are right and I’m wrong. But you guys want the game to be easier or to make you feel more powerful like, let’s say, FO2, but you are too ashamed to say this. You are ashamed because that is precisely that type of preference of causaltards and popamoles who enjoy the likes of Skyrm and DA:I. And that is what make these discussions about AoD so funny: your point is that the game should be easier, but your arguments point to something else that has nothing to with it (teleport, CYOA, one PC, metagaming, etc.). Instead of trying to accusing others of holding down the industry, you should try to help yourself first by being clearer and more honest about what you think is important in games, and with more sophisticated and substantiated arguments. Maybe that way they would be more prone to be convinced by you.
 
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Lurker King

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There's no roleplay in AoD, dude. It's by no means a role-playing game - whomever you want to be, it always forces you into a "desperate scumbag who'll do anything to survive" archetype.

But you can roleplay as a good guy. You have that option. The only problem is that if you choose that, you die like a fucking dog, because people will take advantage of you. It is just the setting, man. Don’t you think is cool to have something different for a change? I’m not a bastard in real life, but that doesn’t make me enjoy the game any less.

In the end, some extra skillpoints are always more important than some NPC's life and wellbeing. Talking about Miltiades situation, for example

You receive more SPs by saving Miltiades because there is a string of quests associated with the character, not because the game entices you to be a jerk.

Another thing is that the "uncharacteristic" solution is often softly punished by the game.

I’m pretty sure that in some cases the pacific option gives you a better reward.

And, well, if fighting always leads to better rewards, why do you need a fighter who can talk?

Because they have the fixed idea that they should be able to reveal all the content in one playtrough. The reward they want is not the SPs, but the additional content.
 
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Lurker King

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Does AoD have degrees of success and failure? I've played the demo long ago but I can't remember any, and I think people would complain a lot less about this game if the skillchecks weren't just completely binary WIN OR DIE.

That is a caricature. Take the very first quest of Thief’s Guild, for instance.

You need to enter the inn. You can (1) walk by the front door sneaking from the guards, (2) climb with your bare hands (3) use a climb hook or (4) use a rope – I think you can fool the guards with streewise, but I’m not sure. Each of the choices have a specific check. Now suppose you build is so lame that you can’t pass any of the checks. The game still allows you to climb with your bare hands, the difference is that you take more time. Now, this have the additional complication that you don’t have the time to lockpick the dead merchant chest without fighting the guards first, but at least you take the map.

Another example is bandit camp. If you try to kill the leader of the bandits with a critical strike and fail, the will knock you down and kick you. By avoiding the blows your dodge will increase by 5 points, but your Max HP is lowered by 2 points. You can call this a failure because from now on you can only pay the ransom for the hostage or kill them by other means – the other pacific options are closed. However, I always do that when I’m a dodger, because it is a good trade.

Another example, in the outpost. Suppose you approach and act as if you are Sohrab, the loremaster they are expecting [Praetor Background + Disguise 3]. You will have to answer a couple of questions first [Persuasion 3] and [Persuasion + Disguise = 6] or [Streetwise + Disguise = 6]. Or you can explain that you are just a skilled loremaster looking for work. He will make a couple of questions [Lore 3] and [Persuasion 3]. Now you can either fix the machine or find a way to heat it until it explodes. In this case, you can convince the guards outside to enter it before the explosion [Streetwise 3]. If you fail in this crucial check, the Decanus and the rest of his men go inside and two guards remain watching over you. After the explosion, you and the two guards go to the ground. You can get up after the guards [Constitution 7] and they will kill you; get up at the same time [Constitution 8] and fight or get up before the guards [Constitution 9] and kill one of them.
The game has a lot of failure-and-go-on scenarios. You guys are too convinced that the game is much more restrictive than it really is.
 

Aenra

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You misunderstood me. Was not talking about what i want, or what i detest being "forced" as you put it, to do. I typed that "wall of text" to remind you how deficiencies and flaws no one has fully exceeded end up shaping mentalities. And barring any change, they're mentalities one needs to either accept (ie what they entail), or do without while bearing the consequences. VD seems to me pretty fucking mature ready to accept said consequences (namely sales) and do without attempting to conform to said mentalities.

You however appeared a touch unwilling/incapable to do likewise. You do not even consider them. You proceeded to instantly diminish a valid protest (you and i may not share it, but that doesn't mean it's wrong) and defend .. the undefendable. We got used to doing things these way. We even have fun doing them in such a manner. When however said 'things' are derivatives of issues, omissions and lack of foresight, i thought once in a blue moon we might feel so inclined to address them. You don't feel likewise inclined (pun intended)? Don't. But do not blame the people having them for being unable to find AoD fun. See what i mean?

And thanks for replying :)
 

Jaedar

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So a lot of people replying to me in this thread make valid points, but its not a point I ever contested. I am sure there *is* enough points to pass all the necessary checks if you min max well. My point is that it isn't telgraphed what you need to spend your points on, and a lot of the stuff that is there is traps. How should I know lore is basically a waste in Teron? How should I know you suddenly need lots of dialogue or combat skills as a thief?

And this has been my main complaint all along, but no one has addressed it. AoD is a very large amount of trial and error. That's fine if you like it, but I won't pretend I don't think it is bad design.

Does AoD have degrees of success and failure? I've played the demo long ago but I can't remember any, and I think people would complain a lot less about this game if the skillchecks weren't just completely binary WIN OR DIE.
To be fair, a lot of them are just WIN OR FAIL THE MISSION (likely leading to snowballing failure and eventual death due to loss of skill points and cash).
 

SniperHF

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I haven't tried the thief questline in a couple of years, but the controversy back then was that a purely burglar-ish thief will be pressed into open combat by Teron's end.

That was incredibly annoying and I can say is no longer an issue in Teron anyway. I just did a stealthy Thief myself and Teron went through swimmingly without even using my bow. I did critical strike kill a few people infiltrating the Palace but that's just good business.

I avoided combat by passing the checks with Flavius and got him to keep the guards off my back. I think this is partially dependent on how you handle one of the earlier quests.

This week I'll try Maadoran, IIRC the issue there was you usually ended up needing critical strike, a talky skill, or disguise for the big assassination mission.
 
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Lurker King

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VD seems to me pretty fucking mature ready to accept said consequences (namely sales) and do without attempting to conform to said mentalities.

There is a dude named George Bernard Shaw that used to say that “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man”

You however appeared a touch unwilling/incapable to do likewise. You do not even consider them. You proceeded to instantly diminish a valid protest (you and i may not share it, but that doesn't mean it's wrong) and defend .. the undefendable. We got used to doing things these way. We even have fun doing them in such a manner. When however said 'things' are derivatives of issues, omissions and lack of foresight, i thought once in a blue moon we might feel so inclined to address them. You don't feel likewise inclined (pun intended)? Don't. But do not blame the people having them for being unable to find AoD fun. See what i mean?

Well, even if they have this mindset, they should still be able to learn another mindset, which embraces a different type of gameplay. Why we have to be limited to one type of gameplay? All the qualities of AoD should be more than enough to enjoy the game. If someone can’t appreciate the skills, the reactivity, the atmosphere, the excellent writing, the awesome soundtrack, etc., because they have to reload, they have bad taste. What I find baffling is that some people here use this type of criticism to dismiss the game beforehand when they appreciate games that are much worse. It sounds like a dishonest excuse to dismiss the game.
 
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Lurker King

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So a lot of people replying to me in this thread make valid points, but its not a point I ever contested. I am sure there *is* enough points to pass all the necessary checks if you min max well. My point is that it isn't telgraphed what you need to spend your points on, and a lot of the stuff that is there is traps. How should I know lore is basically a waste in Teron? How should I know you suddenly need lots of dialogue or combat skills as a thief?

That is because in most cRPGs you can use your stats to kill everything that moves, invest a few points in something else when you are tired of fighting, repeat the process. The default assumption is that everything that is not combat or does not stroke the player’s ego should be fluffy. There is no thought about how the game world should be for an intelligent person, because everything is a generic setting that only has one function: to cater to the player’s whims. That is way you expect that you should be able to use that skill every single time. You assume that the game world should be designed around your ego, because that is what most games do. The truth is that you shouldn’t expect that each and every skill should be useful all the time. That doesn’t make any sense. I know that denying this will lead to constant reloading and hoarding of SPs, but on the other hand you get rid of the bad writing, stereotyped characters, repetitive face-palm tropes, lack of challenge, etc. In addition, there is a lot of stuff to explore and figure it out by yourself in AoD. The game is not a mechanic exercise to use SPs, as some comments would want us to believe. I also think that you guys are too hard on AoD. You talk as if all the other cRPGs had open content and perfect distribution of skills. Take FO2, for instance. Some skills are not that useful and there is gated content too hiding behind reactivity. I’m sure you guys can think in other examples.
 

Tigranes

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Im on my phone so will post better later but Jaedar lore isnt useless in teron - it is used in several places and is crucial to one peaceful - and hilarious - solution to one of terons tougher fights.

SPs are plentiful not only for minmaxers but for true hybrids was the point, ehich you mischaracterise. I rolled a thief through teron last night and could carefreely put 3-4 in lockpick steal sneak streetwise alchemy lore.... for a combat biased thief that put 5/5 in xbow dodge and ended teron with over a dozen kills.

Yes aod does require trial and error. I never denied it, i emphasised it. I dont think that inherently makes it bad drsign. I do think its an inelegant solution, but one that enables so much incline - and every critic's often poorly articulated solution generally boils down to making aod yet another you-can-catch-em-all by giving way too much sps or dominishing consequences to choices.
 
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Elhoim

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So a lot of people replying to me in this thread make valid points, but its not a point I ever contested. I am sure there *is* enough points to pass all the necessary checks if you min max well. My point is that it isn't telgraphed what you need to spend your points on

Telegraphed how? The vignette and first quests of each faction use all the skills that will be used in the rest of faction questline for the game.

Merchant: Vignette - trading. First quest - checks with combination of streetwise, persuasion and trading (apart from options for fighters). You can "win" that quest by accepting Cado's offer and Persuasion 2 (invest just one point). From there on, it's pretty clear that investing in streetwise, persuasion and trading will allow you to complete the questline without any hitches. Plus once you are member, you can talk to Zenon and he'll train your speech skills, further reinforcing the message of "This is what you need!".

Assassin: Vignette - Dexterity + CS, persuasion & streetwise. First quest: Fight + persuasion. Shows the importance of CS and dexterity, plus talker paths that can help you. The unavoidable fight shows that you have to fight eventually. Plus we show the importance of CS via the training you get after the first quest.

Imperial guards: Fight, fight, fight. Plus some options for talker hybrids.

Thief: Vignette - sneak, lockpick, steal. First quest: Speech checks are presented. Streetwise+persuasion with the guards (you can see it, invest just 1-2 points in each and pass it), steal+disguise for the mandate (disguise can be bypassed with high steal). Lore + perception for forging the mandate. Persuasion+streetwise with Flavius, which can be bypassed if you are a Daratan liegeman, lockpick + sneak and dexterity + sneak in Kaeasos house, perception or crafting with the stone (low checks), plus small int to figure out. The thief is the questline with more varied skillchecks, but you can get through them with focusing on one of the skillsets. Regarding combat, when it happens you are almost always joined with more than capable companions that allow you to go into a support role, and you can affect the fight using your skillset. Oh, and you can recruit a new member and she'll teach you speech skills.

Now, how should we telegraph it more according to you? We give show you in the first quest the "tone" the questline is going to have and which skills are going to be used, and the checks are balanced around the SP rate you gain just for completing the questline, even providing ways to complete some of the quests without skills to give you chances to invest in what it's necessary for the job. If you are a merchant, persuasion, streetwise and trading are part of the job requirement. There's no way around that, it's just logical, IMO. But apart from that, we provide some options for fighters, better results with nobles if you invest in etiquette, some extra options when you have lore... I think it's pretty clear. Sure, there's no way you can be a thieving merchant (as an example of skills that are not used there), but that's not what the questline is about and we showed it to you in the first quest. The only way to telegraph it more clearly would be after joining a faction to suggesting the player what to invest on.

Also, no need to min-max, once you know which skills your faction requires, the SP is more than pentiful. Medium investment will get you acceptable results, high investment in them allows more options that can open different paths. SP rewards are the same, BTW, so no snowballing there.

How should I know lore is basically a waste in Teron?

Except it's not. Opens up options in TG and MG questlines, and it's necessary to activate the mine, which brings the best reward with HD and opens up the option to join HA, which I consider in some ways the "loremaster" questline, as it gives you access to several ancient locations in which lore is very important.

How should I know you suddenly need lots of dialogue or combat skills as a thief?

Having them in the first quest doesn't count as suddenly, IMO. And especially in the latest updates we added even more paths.

Now, I know that the thief questline is a particular case. Instead of designing it around a single archetype, we tried to provide options for 3 types of thieves: The Burglar (uses traditional thieving skills), the Thug (combat skills) and the Charmer/Conman (uses speech skills). Which of course, can make the balancing and options creation for the quest a bit hard, and we improved it quite a bit in the past updates because the burglar was getting the short stick. We added options to sneak around before fights, using cs+sneak checks (high sneak can bypass CS requirement) to even the odds or bypass fights, plus removed some skill bottlenecks in some of the quests.

And this has been my main complaint all along, but no one has addressed it. AoD is a very large amount of trial and error. That's fine if you like it, but I won't pretend I don't think it is bad design.

I have to disagree with you, then. I think it's well designed. Not perfect, that's for sure, but not badly designed. As I showed above, it's designed like this:

- The starting faction quest show you the skills you are going to need for working with that faction, and gives you a chance to invest on them even if you fail. And we give SP if you fail, to give you that chance, plus training that helps you with it.
- From that point on, it's the player choice if he wants to play that faction questline knowing which skills are required. Faction questlines shape your character as much as you shape them with your choices. You can start with a blank slate character, and getting into the merchants will make him a talker, or going with the guards will make him a fighter.
- The events and faction questlines in Teron forge your character archetype. Once you get to Maadoran, if you explore the city and travel to different locations, you get an extra supply of skillpoints that allow you to diversify your build into different paths, plus each location provides challenges and paths for different builds, but many times at a level in which an hybrid can pass them.
- At the end of Maadoran and in Ganezzar, you are a stablished member of the faction and your actions shape its future using the skills we first showed you in the beggining of the questline.

The only big trial and error is in the first quest, after that, trying to make a character that goes against the archetypes presented it's on the player side, not the design. It requires a different approach to playing it compared to other RPGs, creating a different mindset in which you start to juggle different character archetypes and think "Let's see how a combat guy with minor speech skills does in the MG questline...", or "I'll make a character that betrays his current faction the first chance he has, and then does it again". This is a far cry compared to almost every other RPGs in which I do a combat character with speech skills to get more of the story and some lockpick to open a few chests.

Now, while the faction questlines provide the biggest amount of SP and material rewards, you can definitely make a character that doesn't join them, does the map quest and sidequests, and can finish the game and achieve quite a few things. And that's the fun of the game, IMO. As I'm writing this, I'm thinking of doing a loremaster that never joins a faction, just doing sidequests and the main quest. He could focus on combat or speech...

Anyway, I hope this clears up some misconceptions about the design of the game. Now, any of you are definitely in the right to dislike a game in which being part of a faction shapes the kind of skills your character will have if he joins it, but I definitely disagree about it being bad design, and I believe it's presented quite well.

Regarding the "skill plateu", I think I mostly covered it as well. At Teron you character can be forged by his faction, at Maadoran he can diversify, at Ganezzar he can shape his faction. His faction skillset never becomes irrelevant, and are needed to get the most amount of choices at the end. But the SP from exploring the gameworld once you arrive to Maadoran allows expanding your character into other skills sets.
 

Elhoim

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This week I'll try Maadoran, IIRC the issue there was you usually ended up needing critical strike, a talky skill, or disguise for the big assassination mission.

Not anymore. There was a disguise bottleneck there that we removed several updates past.

Yes aod does require trial and error. I never denied it, i emphasised it. I dont think that inherently makes it bad drsign. I do think its an inelegant solution, but one that enables so much incline - and every critic's often poorly articulated solution generally boils down to making aod yet another you-can-catch-em-all by giving way too much sps or dominishing consequences to choices.

This. And I believe we improved it a lot since the release of the first Teron demo. And thing is, failing and trying again is part of the challenge. Without a chance to actually completely fail, success is devalued.

I'll be honest, at first it really annoyed me dying in combat, or failing a check. But winning that fight with 1 HP left, being forced to try my best to win it, using everything at my disposal, brought me a joy I have forgotten in all these years playing RPGs in which you win a fight without much effort. Or continue playing after failing checks, being kicked out of the faction, brought an interesting and fun way of finally playing a loser that's struggling to get by instead of being the "Hero of <scripted event at the beginning of the game>".
 
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AbounI

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I'll be honest, at first it really annoyed me dying in combat, or failing a check. But winning that fight with 1 HP left, being forced to try my best to win it, using everything at my disposal, brought me a joy I have forgotten in all these years playing RPGs in which you win a fight without much effort. Or continue playing after failing checks, being kicked out of the faction, brought an interesting and fun way of finally playing a loser that's struggling to get by instead of being the "Hero of <scripted event at the beginning of the game>".
So true, the same for me.The hotter the battle is, the sweeter the victory
 

Johannes

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So tell me, why exactly is it good design to make hybrid characters the most difficult ones by design? To most people making a hybrid comes very naturally (Ill make a mercenary who's also good at X and Y), and playing a dedicated talker or fighter seems very restrictive and boring by comparison. Hybrids feel more realistic, real people are rarely 1-dimensional like that. Even for pure combat builds, you're heavily incentivized to focus on either ranged or melee skill as a lone warrior, which is ridiculous in terms of verisimilitude.


By the time you've familiarized yourself with the system (and just as importantly, memorized how some of the questlines branch out) to the level you can play a hybrid, you've already seen a lot of the branches you're going through. A CYOA game like this is the most fun when you're simply going around discovering novel situations to deal with. The game should be somewhat easy to keep that novelty rolling in, instead of slowing down to trial-and-error which is a bore, the game's systems are too shallow to make for compelling gameplay so let me focus on the storyfaggotry.
 
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Drowed

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Core City
Well, I understand why the system is how it is. From the setting point of view, it makes perfect sense.

But it's not that fun. Or rather, it is fun, but this dyssynchrony, this separation between two distinct pieces (combat/talk) wich exists in the game that never blend into a unified whole end up hurting it a bit. If I could define this feeling, I would say that's like watching a thriller where the protagonist dies in the first 15 minutes. It would probably be the most realistic outcome, yes (instead of watching him always escape from anything by a thread, followed by a lot of coincidences and unlikely behaviour from some villain), but I wouldn't say that this would really be a fun movie to watch.

But interesting? For sure. And AOD is a very interesting game (so much that I still want to play it with other characters), but for me, it occupies a similar place to Arcanum in the RPG genre. It does some things very well, and at its best, it is very interesting game. Really unique. But when things do not work, when any of the paths you have chosen doesn't have some solution that you expected, or when you realize that you really need to choose a archetype and follow through with it to the end, it's disappointing. Or rather, underwhelming. Again, as in Arcanum, we end up wanting the game to be more than what it is, because when its qualities shine, it's amazing.

For me, it entered the ranking of the great "unpolished gems" of RPGs - some great ideas that practice didn't work that well.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
So tell me, why exactly is it good design to make hybrid characters the most difficult ones by design?

I don't think this is a 'problem' that is strictly associated with Age of Decadence (which I haven't played yet), it's a problem that exists across RPG design in general.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
It all depends on how you balance it (i.e. your priorities). Make pure fighters hard and hybrids will be even harder. Make sure everyone can play a hybrid and pure fighters will be the easy mode.
 

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