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Arkane Dishonored 2 - Emily and Corvo's Serkonan Vacation

Somberlain

Arcane
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It's also cool that there isn't an invisible ceiling preventing you from going too high. You can actually easily get past a lot of the final level by jumping on top of all the wires and rooftops.
 

Vibalist

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HR devs should take note, that's how you fucking design a level instead of having a route A (vent), B (strength aug) and C (EMP immunity aug).

You allow room for player creativity and emergent gameplay. You don't design a level around the tools that are at player's disposal, you design an interesting location and the player uses said tools to tackle it as he sees fit.

Of course the video also shows Corvo being overpowered as hell, it needs more guards (and better AI), more ways for enemy to counter Corvo's powers (such as overseers music boxes) etc. but when it comes to level design, it's hilarious how much Harvey Smith and Co leave the competition in the dust.

Dishonored does have the OBVIOUS PIPES and mouse holes lining corridors, though. I think people give DX:HR too much of a hard time about this. With yellow outlines around every vent, everything becomes much more obvious than it was in the original Deus Ex, even though both games had vents criss-crossing levels.

It's not solely about the access to conveniently placed vents, though. The reason DXHR was sub par compared to its predecessor wasn't because vents were everywhere, but because it suffered too much from "choose between path A or B" syndrome, to the detriment of real emergent gameplay. Dishonored did not fall into this trap. It allowed you to improvise in ways HR's level design never could.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's not solely about the access to conveniently placed vents, though. The reason DXHR was sub par compared to its predecessor wasn't because vents were everywhere, but because it suffered too much from "choose between path A or B" syndrome, to the detriment of what real emergent gameplay. Dishonored did not fall into this trap.

Like I said, I think people are exaggerating this. I'm seeing it as an inevitable outcome of the game's levels being more cramped than the original DX's (Invisible War had even smaller levels and, what a surprise, was even worse about it), not as some intentional design decision. When everything is smaller, of course the paths are going to be more obvious.

But again, Dishonored avoids falling into the trap by simply removing from its game design anything that could create said trap in the first place. You can't have "paths" when your protagonist can just teleport anywhere he wants, so the game HAS to do something else entirely. Which is, I guess, turn you into a superpowered badass who can teleport through entire levels in seconds, but can kill enemies in various cool ways if he feels like it.

What I'm saying is that it's easy to be "emergent" when you've largely given up on the notion of physical obstacles from the get-go.
 

Vibalist

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It's not solely about the access to conveniently placed vents, though. The reason DXHR was sub par compared to its predecessor wasn't because vents were everywhere, but because it suffered too much from "choose between path A or B" syndrome, to the detriment of what real emergent gameplay. Dishonored did not fall into this trap.

Like I said, I think people are exaggerating this. I'm seeing it as an inevitable outcome of the game's levels being more cramped than the original DX's (Invisible War had even smaller levels and, what a surprise, was even worse about it), not as some intentional design decision. When everything is smaller, of course the paths are going to be more obvious.

I agree with you in part, but IIRC HR did have certain augs that only worked at specific spots, which is the exact kind of thing that ruins emergent gameplay. If a game only allows you to use your skills at "grapple points" then that will hamper individual creativity quite a bit. Dishonored did not do this, and Harvey Smith even came out and said he was very much against such game design.

But again, Dishonored avoids falling into the trap by simply removing from its game design anything that could create said trap in the first place. You can't have "paths" when your protagonist can just teleport anywhere he wants, so the game HAS to do something else entirely. Which is, I guess, turn you into a superpowered badass who can teleport through entire levels in seconds, but can kill enemies in various cool ways if he feels like it.

What I'm saying is that it's easy to be "emergent" when you've largely given up on the notion of physical obstacles from the get-go.

There is that, I suppose. I still don't know if I agree that Dishonored would've been like HR had it put a limit on your superpowers. But I see your point.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It wouldn't have, because its levels still would have been larger/more vertical and it wouldn't have the highlighting making everything extra-obvious.

To me the main problem with what DX:HR did wasn't so much "obvious paths" but really just the vents - there were too many of them everywhere which made me feel like I was wasting my time doing anything else but using them. The original Deus Ex was better about this because the levels were so large and the vent networks so extensive that when you travelled through vents you felt like you might be missing out on lots of stuff.
 

yes plz

Arcane
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Pathfinder: Wrath
It's also cool that there isn't an invisible ceiling preventing you from going too high. You can actually easily get past a lot of the final level by jumping on top of all the wires and rooftops.

iirc you can bypass like 90% of the final level by traveling up a cable you can jump onto near the rocks where you're first dropped off at. I've always wondered how intended that was.
 

DalekFlay

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I will upgrade my PC for this game, then go back and play Witcher 3, and the modern decline WILL BE MINE.

P.S. Badass lady assassins are the best.
 

Renegen

Arcane
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Dishonored had to many maps that were terrible, either full combat, very linear or just straight rehashes of previous maps. Maybe half the game was actually enjoyable, but when it worked it was pretty gud. I hope the sequel continues to improve the formula.
 

Renegen

Arcane
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Messages
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A lot of maps were "infiltrate this" like the final mission actually, I'd call that linear. I much prefer the maps in Thief where you have a 3D mansion that you can approach from any angle top bottom etc and that involve getting in and then getting out. Dishonored had a few like the 3 sisters map, the whaling factory and a couple other ones. Also the first mission prison was replicated and the dreaded flooded district which was done 3x I believe each time a chore to go through.
 

waywardOne

Arcane
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Aug 28, 2010
Messages
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Faves for reference: T2, SC:CT
Recently played: Styx

What bothered me about Dishonored was its lack of commitment to a playstyle. Either go hardcore combat or hardcore stealth. Why have a game with kill combos and slowdowns, yet achievements for ghosting? Maybe I just want another sneaker where combat is 99% to end badly.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,395
It's not solely about the access to conveniently placed vents, though. The reason DXHR was sub par compared to its predecessor wasn't because vents were everywhere, but because it suffered too much from "choose between path A or B" syndrome, to the detriment of what real emergent gameplay. Dishonored did not fall into this trap.

Like I said, I think people are exaggerating this. I'm seeing it as an inevitable outcome of the game's levels being more cramped than the original DX's (Invisible War had even smaller levels and, what a surprise, was even worse about it), not as some intentional design decision. When everything is smaller, of course the paths are going to be more obvious.

But again, Dishonored avoids falling into the trap by simply removing from its game design anything that could create said trap in the first place. You can't have "paths" when your protagonist can just teleport anywhere he wants, so the game HAS to do something else entirely. Which is, I guess, turn you into a superpowered badass who can teleport through entire levels in seconds, but can kill enemies in various cool ways if he feels like it.

What I'm saying is that it's easy to be "emergent" when you've largely given up on the notion of physical obstacles from the get-go.
HR walled in their levels on a very restricting way, say for example you have to infiltrate a warehouse, most of the time, you can't walk around the place, check the backyard, try to go over the roofs, the whole place is blocked off with stuff and the whole place looks like a very restricted videogame level while on Dishonored, especially on the DLC, the building you have to infiltrate is on the center of the map and you can walk around it seeking for an entrance. The places on Dishonored feel like real places while HR were videogamey places that tried as hard as they could to herd you into the places the level designer wanted you to go on the order he wanted you to go.

The best original Deus Ex levels were much closer to Dishonored than to HR, the hubs of HR were kinda similar to DX but the missions themselves, on DX, you could do a 360° around the place you were supposed to go what doesn't happen on HR. Another big limitation on HR in relation to Dishonored is that on HR there is no connection between the outside and inside areas. I mean, sure, there are places where you can get from outside and enter a building but there is no realistic relationship between the external areas and the internal areas.

Some levels of HR felt artificial, very, very gamey, you don't have a sense of place. Take for example the second mission on Knife of Dunwall where you have to infiltrate a three floors high mansion, same with the Golden Cat brothel, and other levels too, you have a sense of real space, you can go in and out organically what doesn't happen on any mission on HR. Not saying all levels of Dishonored are perfect on this but I never felt as restricted as I was on HR levels, now with the bigger RAM, Dishonored 2 could do it even better as the need for dividing levels by loading screens will be lowered while from the walkthrough I watched of Mankind Divided, I didn't see anything in there that proved to me that the HR devs are even aware of their limitations on level design.
 

Wirdschowerdn

Ph.D. in World Saving
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HR devs are more concerned about the "art". Bunch of edgy hipsters. They didn't understand the DNA of Deus Ex, so they just created a fashion statement of it instead, resulting in filmset maps, fancy fashion design and silly exuberant allegories. Mankind Divided just looks like more of the same.
 

Siel

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Karnaca concept art.

1292304_orig.jpg


1292303_orig.jpg
 

Siel

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Some refined shithole
Harvey Smith interview on 'Player choice' in Dishonored 2 :

“Dishonored was a mish-mash,” says Smith. “We wanted to make a first-person immersive game in a fantasy world with some stealth features; it was a homage to games we’d made before or loved. But, halfway through, we were only just figuring out what it was. The map, the calendar, the religion the culture – it felt really good starting the new project just knowing that stuff. On top of that we were thinking, well, our swordfighting could have been a little deeper, our stealth could have been more reliable with better feedback, and our UI was slapped together at the last minute. Just at every level there was something to deepen or extend or think about longer.”

“If you play as Emily it’s all new – she has her own set of powers, her own assassinations and animations, so she feels different, she feels like a finesse character. In the video, we show a power called Far Reach [a teleportation abaility] which can be upgraded in different ways, and it changes your flow through the world and your mobility. Just on a video game level, moving through the world feels different. But if you play Corvo, it’s all this classic stuff, it’s the rat swarms, it’s possession, it’s stopping time – he feels more heavy and brutal, he’s an older guy.”

“We argued about this on Deus Ex,” says Smith. “Some members of the team felt that each building should split, and that in one hallway all the locked doors and encounters and conflicts are all related to sneaking; then there’s a hallway here that’s all related to hacking, and another up here that’s all about fighting. The other half of the team, me included, said ‘no, what we should do is intermix those things so there’s a fluidity as you get to each situation: you can decide, am I going to deal with it this way or that way, or do I need to bypass it because I’m not skilled in that area?’”

“I hate to use the term realism, but we look at every place to see if it’s plausible. Does it have a history? How does the guard in this room get to work? We’ve built levels before and then looked at them and said, ‘Really? The guy starts here on the terrace, then has to get to the dock, and he needs to walk a mile and up ten flights of steps? That doesn’t make any sense’. We approach it very plausibly but it’s very interconnected – you see the tower you need to get to, but your path will be different to mine.”

For Smith, the key is all about making player choice the defining experience of play. If it’s a cosmetic or trivial element that is quickly forgotten or proves irrelevant, it’s not a choice. He talks about the games he’s looking forward to – XCOM 2, Fallouot 4, No Man’s Sky – and sees that element in all of them. “The common thread seems to be, most of the time, you make decisions and you can succeed or fail or have an interesting experience or not based on the decisions you make,” he says. “The more that’s true the more I like it. I like lonely self-paced experiences, I don’t want a game to be room-hallway-room-hallway-explosion – that’s not interesting to me.”

http://www.theguardian.com/technolo...d-2-harvey-smith-player-choice-arkane-studios
 

flyingjohn

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2012
Messages
2,966
Well reading that it seems that she is just a contract and has no overwhelming influence on the story except some npc and random dialogue.So there is nothing to worry about except the average writing which was also in the original dishonored.
 

Alfons

Prophet
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
1,031
Well reading that it seems that she is just a contract and has no overwhelming influence on the story except some npc and random dialogue.So there is nothing to worry about except the average writing which was also in the original dishonored.
We'll see about that.

TMS: Favourite character you’ve written for and why?

Ellison: Emily from Dishonored 2 because she is a cool-ass lady and ruthless assassin who doesn’t take any shit from anyone.
:dead:

At least she's honest, sort of.
TMS: How did you end up where you are today?

Ellison: I think it’s not really to do with talent, although I do believe I have some … rather I think it’s a combination of

1.Privilege...
:lol:
 

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