Jagged Alliance 2 - how to play it in 2014?

[The_scorpion]

@Khor: I didn't mean Tron with my Statement. I Confused his Project with SMP and its figurehead.

@manatee: CTH is VERY different in 1.13 compared to Vanilla Ja2 and the CTH indicator is optionally an hestimate, by Default it is the actual Chance to hit. Also, your way of calculating CTH for Mercs with the Psycho trait is way off. A flat Bonus to CTH (when bursting only) doesn't mean they'll outperform at MRK 85 an MRK 99 guy.

generally, 1.13 allows for so much customization that debating its diffculty is nonsense. There are as many difficulties as there are configurations of the Options.

 

[Khor1255]

@Khor: I didn't mean Tron with my Statement. I Confused his Project with SMP and its figurehead.

I got that. I was just reiterating my impression of the guy who actually developed Straciacella (I probably spell that wrong every time I write it).

@manatee: CTH is VERY different in 1.13 compared to Vanilla Ja2 and the CTH indicator is optionally an hestimate, by Default it is the actual Chance to hit. Also, your way of calculating CTH for Mercs with the Psycho trait is way off. A flat Bonus to CTH (when bursting only) doesn't mean they'll outperform at MRK 85 an MRK 99 guy.

generally, 1.13 allows for so much customization that debating its diffculty is nonsense. There are as many difficulties as there are configurations of the Options.

This is true. I was mainly referring to an un-tweaked game from years ago so my comments about difficulty are very near worthless in the big picture. You can adjust so many things to get the desired 'realism' (cough) and difficulty you like. It can be a harder game or an easier game depending on how you set the initial .ini.

 

[The_scorpion]

and it's especially hard when savegames corrupt after like 3 maps and you need to micromanage your savegames more than your merc's stuff

 

[Average Manatee]

So, you have an invisibility trait in the 1.13? Or are you saying you only use night ops?

You hardly need nights ops to spot enemies first. High level NV + camo = you'll out spot just about everything. And even in daytime, good scopes are rather imba at extending sight range.

@Khor: I didn't mean Tron with my Statement. I Confused his Project with SMP and its figurehead.

@manatee: CTH is VERY different in 1.13 compared to Vanilla Ja2 and the CTH indicator is optionally an hestimate, by Default it is the actual Chance to hit.

Different in what way? Tell me how the CTH formula changes, and specifically how 1.13 becomes so much easier because of it.

The CTH indicator is default inaccurate in the latest 1.13. I have no idea of when it was made default, but it is.

Also, your way of calculating CTH for Mercs with the Psycho trait is way off. A flat Bonus to CTH (when bursting only) doesn't mean they'll outperform at MRK 85 an MRK 99 guy.

Your right, I was being conservative. 85 MRK + Psycho is actually stronger than 100 MRK in all instances, since MRK can be modified downward by other factors (breath penalty). Psycho is +15 to hit in all instances with all weapons.

Please inform yourself: http://ja2v113.pbworks.com/w/page/4218322/"How does it work" Part 4: Chance-to-Hit

 

[The_scorpion]

lol average manatee, you confuse stuff there. Marksmanship isn't base Chance to hit, isn't actual Chance to hit and markmanship factors into it later again after the psycho Bonus is already applied etc. your calculation is what we tend to call a "Milchmädchenrechnung" around here.

Chance to hit in vanilla ja2 was different for a huge number of reasons. Not only because of the changes and tweaks and Options applied to the actual chance to hit formula by 1.13 developers, but also because of tons of other factors. Changed stats and modifiers of items, behaviours, firing modes, AI changes etc. all of this factors into it and explains why 1.13 gameplay, even if you tried to mod it that way, is different to vanilla gameplay in Terms of Chance to hit for your mercs and the AI. There's tons of factors i won't and i can't list them all, but what i say is you can't reproduce vanilla ja2 Chance to hit behaviour in 1.13.

the CTH calculater was first the actual Chance to hit. Chance to hit inaccuracy was modded in later. What the current Default Options in the game are, i don't care. Players know they can have a very accurate CTH indicator if they want and so make gameplay much more computational.

I never said 1.13 was easier. I said it was different. Inform yourself of what i wrote above rather than to misunderstand everything (on purpose?)

 

[GreyViper]

yeah, that 1p21 scope is probably longer than the entire akms-u, so if the creator of said mod wasn't an infallible god-king amongst men, it might almost appear to be an oversight.

or it was a conscious move to give as many customization Options possible with those AK's.

goodness, as if i remembered that




i always loved to drop Spoilers about RR, but it has been like what, 6 or 7 years?

Are you early in the game or far progressed?

Spoiler

Sure enough i scripted some sex Scenes in it... oh and i tried to implement a bit of a quest-related trap as a novelty but i may have foreshadowed it too much for anybody actually falling for it. Then there's like 7 alternative endings or so but some of them are hard to achieve and the Scripting is a mess, even by my low Standards of that time

i think i might have to fire up some RR the other day and have a look at it. Sadly, i don't have the 1.13-based RR installed anymore.

If it was a conscious move to give as many customization Options possible with those AK's. Then I have nothing against it since at start I like to use WP weapons. Right now Im in early game, work does not leave much time to play lately. I have to say the version of RR im playing is quite stabel, no major bugs or anything. One thing that has me cursing tough is that last enemy who likes to hide in most unlikeliest places. Sure in the youl learn their spawn points and check them out, but it can be so tedious sometimes.

So any more info about the 7 endings. I imagine some of them are much harder to trigger then some.

Also thank you guys Khor1255 and The_scorpion for explaining about RR and 1.13 backgrounds. It makes very interesting reading.

 

[Khor1255]

So, you have an invisibility trait in the 1.13? Or are you saying you only use night ops?

You hardly need nights ops to spot enemies first. High level NV + camo = you'll out spot just about everything. And even in daytime, good scopes are rather imba at extending sight range.

This would be one of those things I'd consider a severe player exploit. Maybe that's just me though. Uniformly I had players who didn't mod at all getting very upset with me when I complained about exploits the AI couldn't use. These exploits really become evident when you are working on balancing your own mod and find out it is a cakewalk for players.
Mine tended to be sadistically hard to compensate for that and I had complaints from the guys who were alpha testing it.

Also thank you guys Khor1255 and The_scorpion for explaining about RR and 1.13 backgrounds. It makes very interesting reading.

Scorpion and to a lesser extent myself spent a lot of time both modding and vigorously interacting with the developers of the 1.13 to voice our suggestions and concerns about the project. Initially when Madd Mugsy first made the mod he and Kaiden were extremely helpful and evenb humble towards modders and players alike. Once Mugsy moved on to other things (right around the time the next generation 1.13 developers really started making noise) we were left only with Kaiden and wanne (aka. RoWa21) doing any real modder 'liaison' work with the rest of the coders focusing on player exploits and items. This hummed along ok for a while until the dawn of the NIV system. A few of us voiced serious concerns for a few of the side effects of the NIV system and at first there seemed to be honest concern as to how this was going to effect future 'new gameworld' mods but later on I kept being told basically to conform to the new system or make my own.
These issues became so hard to work with I eventually started modding only from an older build. Then this older build became hard for people to find (apparently I was the only one archiving older builds) and I realized that I was going to put all this work into something that only my immediate friends were going to be able to play (uploading very large files was near impossible for me back then). I still kept going but then around the time I had my first son I realized I was spending more time online arguing with developers who had completely stopped listening to what I had to say while I had a little guy who could use my attention. So I petty much completely dropped out of the scene occasionally coming back to first try to help with the SMP (because being a different version I figured it might have a chance to be useful) then just making suggestion usually to deaf ears.

Ooops didn't mean to wall of text you.

 

[kyrub]

generally, 1.13 allows for so much customization that debating its diffculty is nonsense. There are as many difficulties as there are configurations of the Options.

The problem of open-modding-platforms in a nutshell:
(first stage) "So many customization that debatting is impossible."
(second stage) Everybody plays his own game, we "develop" new versions, basically stopping playing the game.
(third stage) The community ends in quarrels and misunderstandings over the common ground.

These issues became so hard to work with I eventually started modding only from an older build.

What old builds do you still have, Khor? What buid was the last acceptable for you?

 

[Khor1255]

The one I mod from is the 687. The problem with this one is that it doesn't contain the extremely cool mapping xmls that became available in the 1080 and I think expanded on in a later build. I'm not sure all the ones I have. I know I have the 687, the 1080, the 2112 and maybe one or two more. My map editor build used the 302 for the longest time but I don't think I archived that one. I really wish I had.

EDIT

I think the scorpion was talking about the debate we were having here about gameplay difficulty in the 1.13 compared to vanilla so while I get your point you'd have to read through a lot of old posts at Bear's Pit to see how it actually played out. Those guys got extremely defensive over any critique eventually shutting out everyone except those who were essentially unquestioning fanboys.

It was really rather sad to see it play out.

 

[J_C]

The one I mod from is the 687. The problem with this one is that it doesn't contain the extremely cool mapping xmls that became available in the 1080 and I think expanded on in a later build. I'm not sure all the ones I have. I know I have the 687, the 1080, the 2112 and maybe one or two more. My map editor build used the 302 for the longest time but I don't think I archived that one. I really wish I had.

EDIT

I think the scorpion was talking about the debate we were having here about gameplay difficulty in the 1.13 compared to vanilla so while I get your point you'd have to read through a lot of old posts at Bear's Pit to see how it actually played out. Those guys got extremely defensive over any critique eventually shutting out everyone except those who were essentially unquestioning fanboys.

It was really rather sad to see it play out.

Could you tell me which build should I use if I want to be as close to vanilla as possible, but with higher resoluion, and extra stuff that don't effect game balance?

 

[The_scorpion]

yeah, that 1p21 scope is probably longer than the entire akms-u, so if the creator of said mod wasn't an infallible god-king amongst men, it might almost appear to be an oversight.

or it was a conscious move to give as many customization Options possible with those AK's.

goodness, as if i remembered that




i always loved to drop Spoilers about RR, but it has been like what, 6 or 7 years?

Are you early in the game or far progressed?

Spoiler

Sure enough i scripted some sex Scenes in it... oh and i tried to implement a bit of a quest-related trap as a novelty but i may have foreshadowed it too much for anybody actually falling for it. Then there's like 7 alternative endings or so but some of them are hard to achieve and the Scripting is a mess, even by my low Standards of that time

i think i might have to fire up some RR the other day and have a look at it. Sadly, i don't have the 1.13-based RR installed anymore.

If it was a conscious move to give as many customization Options possible with those AK's. Then I have nothing against it since at start I like to use WP weapons. Right now Im in early game, work does not leave much time to play lately. I have to say the version of RR im playing is quite stabel, no major bugs or anything. One thing that has me cursing tough is that last enemy who likes to hide in most unlikeliest places. Sure in the youl learn their spawn points and check them out, but it can be so tedious sometimes.

So any more info about the 7 endings. I imagine some of them are much harder to trigger then some.

Also thank you guys Khor1255 and The_scorpion for explaining about RR and 1.13 backgrounds. It makes very interesting reading.

Early game... okay, then i'm less concerned. If that akms-u would be OP still in midgame, that wold have worried me. As for WP weapons, the Mod heavily relies on them because of the Setting. Western weapons will be much more rare. At the same time, lots of equipment and attachments etc. for the WP guns are available.

As for some easter eggs: two of the new custom RPC's were voiced by girlfriend and boyfriend. It ain't hard to find out which of them, but should be fun trivia once you know that. They might even have married afterwords, don't know about that.

And there's an obscure reference to Khor very very early in the game. though i'm not sure anybody could have spotted it. At least not without profound Bear's pit Insider knowlegde. anyway i'm getting carried away.

More easter eggs: an early game NPC is a bit of a real life Person parody and a Tribute. Already spotted him? (i know it's again fairly easy)




as for the seven endings:

Spoiler

The endgame might branch on a few occasions, so that in might Play out in several sub.endings. The version where you torture the endgame NPC is hard to trigger. Then the Story might branch depending on the NPC escaping or not and shit... i did manage to have him flee the torture room and grab the rocket launchers outside to continue fighting... once at least in testing , but i don't think i could ever Trigger that again. Scripting that stuff was highly unreliable.

 

[Khor1255]

The one I mod from is the 687. The problem with this one is that it doesn't contain the extremely cool mapping xmls that became available in the 1080 and I think expanded on in a later build. I'm not sure all the ones I have. I know I have the 687, the 1080, the 2112 and maybe one or two more. My map editor build used the 302 for the longest time but I don't think I archived that one. I really wish I had.

EDIT

I think the scorpion was talking about the debate we were having here about gameplay difficulty in the 1.13 compared to vanilla so while I get your point you'd have to read through a lot of old posts at Bear's Pit to see how it actually played out. Those guys got extremely defensive over any critique eventually shutting out everyone except those who were essentially unquestioning fanboys.

It was really rather sad to see it play out.

Could you tell me which build should I use if I want to be as close to vanilla as possible, but with higher resoluion, and extra stuff that don't effect game balance?

If I'm remembering correctly it was the 1080 that first used the higher resolutions. I could be mistaken here because it's been a looong time since I messed with that build. The downside of that one (if I'm remembering correctly) is that it had a serious pathing issue that would break a quest you tweaked for a mod and I think it might have even caused a quirk in the vanilla 1.13 game.

Hopefully the scorpion will remember more about these details than I do.

I'm planning on firing up the old desktop and maybe loading a lot of my stuff into a data stick and I'll try to take a look and fix any mistakes I might have made here. I doubt I'll be able to reveal such derails without extensive playtesting (which I don't plan to do because my set up for this machine is anything but ergonomic) but who knows?

EDIT

They used to keep a chronicle of which builds produced which changes first on the 1.13 wiki. You might find it there.

 

[J_C]

Thanks bro.

 

[Ellef]

A good old fashioned necro

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq8G4tZbMmw

Anyone found a way to get this working on Windows 8?

 

[Fray]

A good old fashioned necro

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq8G4tZbMmw

Anyone found a way to get this working on Windows 8?

This worked for me. I only tried the vanilla version from GOG. I haven't tried 1.13 or any other mods yet. The link to that version of wine didn't work for me but just google wined3d 1.1.38 and you should be able to find a mirror. It does crash instead of closing but other than that everything seemed to work fine.

 

[Shannow]

So I was trying to play with stacciatella with this command line:
ja2.exe -resversion ENGLISH -fullscreen -res 1280x720

When I play vanilla, the resolution is stretched to fullscreen.
In strac it's always a window. Even with forced fullscreen it'll just be a small window in the middle of an otherwise black backround...
Is there some command that will force it to stretch like vanilla?

 

[whatevername]

Alt+Enter?



ja2.ini:

;******************************************************************************************************************************
; Select windowed or full screen mode?
; 0 ... Full Screen
; 1 ... Windowed Mode
; If you like to play in Windowed Mode, you have to switch your Windows Desktop Color Scheme to 16 Bit!
;******************************************************************************************************************************

SCREEN_MODE_WINDOWED = 1

 

[Shannow]

Alt+Enter works.

Thx.

 

[Fenix]

Thanks, very informative tread guys!

 

[roshan]

So I tried Jagged Alliance 2 with the Straciatella mod for slightly higher resolution (increased to 720p)... Can't say I enjoyed what I played of it though, I'm really surprised that so many seem to play it until today when the game hasn't aged well at all.

- Character movement and animations are really really slow, I feel like I am wasting time playing it.
- The interface is incredibly arcane. It's hard to get used to that there are two menu bars that can show up at the bottom, and having to switch between them to find the buttons and controls you need is a huge hassle.
- The main interface with the maps and such is also really terrible. I remember struggling just to figure out how to move my characters to another map.
- Combat is pretty terrible. I remember running into some red shirts, and everyone just missing shots over and over at close range. Gun ranges are just wacky too. Enemies who were barely 10 meters away were showing up as out of range.

Overall, just didn't see the appeal. Maybe it gets fun later on but the game really needs a complete interface overhaul and some revision of early game mechanics.

 

[Ninjerk]

What mercs?

 

[zool]

So I tried Jagged Alliance 2 with the Straciatella mod for slightly higher resolution (increased to 720p)... Can't say I enjoyed what I played of it though, I'm really surprised that so many seem to play it until today when the game hasn't aged well at all.

- Character movement and animations are really really slow, I feel like I am wasting time playing it.
- The interface is incredibly arcane. It's hard to get used to that there are two menu bars that can show up at the bottom, and having to switch between them to find the buttons and controls you need is a huge hassle.
- The main interface with the maps and such is also really terrible. I remember struggling just to figure out how to move my characters to another map.
- Combat is pretty terrible. I remember running into some red shirts, and everyone just missing shots over and over at close range. Gun ranges are just wacky too. Enemies who were barely 10 meters away were showing up as out of range.

Overall, just didn't see the appeal. Maybe it gets fun later on but the game really needs a complete interface overhaul and some revision of early game mechanics.

Not sure if trolling.

 

[Athelas]

Ban roshan.

Combat is pretty terrible. I remember running into some red shirts, and everyone just missing shots over and over at close range. Gun ranges are just wacky too. Enemies who were barely 10 meters away were showing up as out of range.

That would be effective weapon range. You should be trying to close the distance between you and the enemy to increase your accuracy. Another way would be using your action points to boost your aim.

 

[roshan]

What mercs?

I have MD, Barry, Igor and Ira.....

 

[Ninjerk]

Quit buying shit mercs on day 1. Anyway, I found some of what I would consider similar complaints regarding Silent Storm that I'd chalk up to engine limitations, but IIRC SCO is fairly knowledgable about JA2 engine.