Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Thoughts about encounter design, structure and pacing in Path of the Damned difficulty

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,487
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Some thoughts based on an incomplete playthrough.

It's my observation that problems that people have with games often have to do less with specific features or design choices, and more with how those design choices come together.

Let's look at Pillars of Eternity's wilderness encounters under Path of the Damned difficulty (The One True Difficulty Level™). Many of them are quite challenging. I would never call them "trash combat" and individually, they're pretty fun to overcome.

PoE, however, has a peculiar sort of design. In the standard oldschool RPG model, you have a main quest, whose difficulty gradually goes up, plus lots of optional content, including "happy hunting ground"-type areas that have combat that usually isn't incredibly involved. Typically, you might find yourself unable to progress in the main quest until you've gone grinding for XP in the happy hunting ground, via killing monsters or solving various sidequests. BG1's wilderness areas excel at this, field after field full of trash mobs you can roll over while journeying from town town. It's not "good encounter design", but it is a well-paced, tradtional RPG experience.

In PoE/PotD, however, the optional locations in every area are noticeably more difficult than the main path. It's what I call the "Deathclaw Promontory Design Principle". In other words, the traditional model is inverted. You don't grind optional content to be able to progress on the main quest. Instead, you might find yourself pursuing the main quest further so you can revisit and complete the optional content.

And hence the pacing problem. In most story-driven RPGs, the main quest encounters are inevitable more likely to be more interestingly designed, more story-relevant, more likely to involve intelligent human foes rather than brute monsters, more likely to yield interesting loot, etc. And so you have a game where the player's sense of pacing is skewed and unexpected. He might spend a great deal of time on dealing with combat that is relatively less interesting, and less time with the combat that's supposed to be more interesting.

Say I run into a large horde of lions in some out of the way cove in Woodend Plains and Stormwall Gorge. A bunch of melee monsters that maul your tank to death in seconds if you don't control them properly with debuffs. That's pretty cool. Three times, however, and it's not so much that you're not enjoying yourself (I'd say every encounter is just different enough that it's not quite a matter of repeating the exact same tactic three times), but you begin wondering whether you should really be spending so much time in a wilderness area doing something so comparatively unimportant. It's all in the pacing. The overall impression one gets is that the wilderness areas aren't really BG1-style wilderness romps at all, but actually dungeon areas that happen to be above ground.

So, what I would do with PoE/PotD is actually consider making some of the encounters in every area LESS difficult. I think that in general, "monolithic" encounters composed entirely of one sort of enemy should have an upper cap on their difficulty that should rarely be exceeded. If it is exceeded, there'd better be some damn good loot there. Ideally, PoE's wilderness areas should receive BG1-style NPC party encounters with interesting loot, and that should be the "difficulty spike" in every area that the player spends a lot of time cracking. Defeating these encounters should perhaps grant some experience points as well.

As far as loot goes, it's not really that PoE's loot selection is bad, but loot placing should be made more unique, so you might need to go to a specific place in the world and beat a hard encounter to find the only free Fine Rapier in the early game, or whatever.

But even without fancy NPC enemies, I think some relatively minor tweaking of existing encounters could make PoE/PotD a better-paced experience. Of course, I imagine that as I progress in the game and my characters become more powerful, I might reach a point where this pacing issue sorts itself out naturally, though at the expense of difficulty across the board.
 
Last edited:

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
I thought that was because human NPC's don't benefit from PoTD stat increases from creatures? I could be wrong though.

Another issue with the human encounters is that enemy spellcasters don't really use any status ailments that could take your party out of commission. They almost exclusively use damage spells. On the other hand, quite a few of the creatures have status ailments that they inflict on every normal attack.

A bunch of melee monsters that maul your tank to death in seconds if you don't control them properly with debuffs.
git gud
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,487
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I thought that was because human NPC's don't benefit from PoTD stat increases from creatures? I could be wrong though.

Another issue with the human encounters is that enemy spellcasters don't really use any status ailments that could take your party out of commission. They seem to exclusively use damage spells. On the other hand, quite a few of the creatures have status ailments that they inflict on every normal attack.

I've been hit with debuffs at times that were followed up with an attack that took a hefty chunk off of the life of one of my characters. The AI doesn't seem so good at doing this consistently over time, however. The ideal time to use such a one-two punch would be later in a battle, when your characters are already wounded and there's a chance of taking one of them down.

Generally, I find that holding things (spells, per-encounter abilities, even entire characters) "in reserve" in PoE's tougher battles can be important, as opponents can sometimes have a dangerous second wind as the debuffs of the initial "alpha strike" wear off.
 
Last edited:

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,278
Location
Terra da Garoa
Thing is, PoE showers players with XP (especially the main quest), leveling up makes you A LOT more powerful and the game does a horrible job at pacing.

Take the mega-dungeon for example. It has 15 levels, but you can access it entirely very quickly. Some people will enter it as soon as they unlock it. Others will explore it much later on, on Act 2 or maybe at the end of Act 3. The kobold pit battle on the 2nd floor can be challenging at Lv 5, but it's a cakewalk at Lv 9, and a joke at Lv 12. And the game does absolutely nothing to address this.

Another example are the bounty hunts. It took me a while to buy the guy that sell you the quests, so on my first playthrough I was over-leveled for them and they were banal shit boring. Still I completed them all, curious to see if I would later unlock a really cool challenging battle. I didn't. But I got so much XP from those that I reached Lv 12 doing them and now was over-leveled when I returned to the main quest.

This is bad pacing, there's no other way around it.

No matte how you play PoE, you'll constantly end up over-leveled or under-leveled. And since a Lv 7 party is extremely more powerful than a Lv 5 party, this doesn't make battles a bit easier or a bit harder like in other RPGs, but rather make them entirely trivial or "a bunch of melee monsters that maul your tank to death in seconds if you don't control them properly with debuffs" (in PotD, that is).
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,487
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Thing is, PoE showers players with XP (especially the main quest), leveling up makes you A LOT more powerful and the game does a horrible job at pacing.

Take the mega-dungeon for example. It has 15 levels, but you can access it entirely very quickly. Some people will enter it as soon as they unlock it. Others will explore it much later on, on Act 2 or maybe at the end of Act 3. The kobold pit battle on the 2nd floor can be challenging at Lv 5, but it's a cakewalk at Lv 9, and a joke at Lv 12. And the game does absolutely nothing to address this.

Another example are the bounty hunts. It took me a while to buy the guy that sell you the quests, so on my first playthrough I was over-leveled for them and they were banal shit boring. Still I completed them all, curious to see if I would later unlock a really cool challenging battle. I didn't. But I got so much XP from those that I reached Lv 12 doing them and now was over-leveled when I returned to the main quest.

This is bad pacing, there's no other way around it.

No matte how you play PoE, you'll constantly end up over-leveled or under-leveled. And since a Lv 7 party is extremely more powerful than a Lv 5 party, this doesn't make battles a bit easier or a bit harder like in other RPGs, but rather make them entirely trivial or "a bunch of melee monsters that maul your tank to death in seconds if you don't control them properly with debuffs" (in PotD, that is).

Well, bounty hunt XP rewards have been nerfed.

Outlevelling content in this sort of game is probably inevitable, especially content in an optional 15 level megadungeon, but certainly, the power curve may be worth examining. I am also not against BG2-style encounter scaling, but I think some players (especially those of a Codexian persuasion) may react negatively to that.

Your party does defeat enemies who are of a higher level than them frequently, so theoretically level gaps can be overcome. Another reason for enemy NPC parties.

I think the game's XP system can excel at keeping you "plateaued" at a certain level, at which point it can deliver challenging encounters that you can't outlevel easily. An interesting power progression would be one where you, for example, spend lots of time at level 5, followed by a "levelling spurt" which quickly takes you up to level 8, at which you plateau again for a while, etc. In other words, give every act of the game its own expected level range, where you reach the highest level of the range relatively quickly, and balance all the encounters in the act for that highest level.
 
Last edited:

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
In my experience from a playthrough on hard and a 2nd ongoing on PotD, the early difficulty is about where I would it expect to be, but once you reach Defiance Bay/Chapter 2, difficulty gets wonky - usually encounters become much too easy (with the exception of the occasional optional wilderness encounter, as Infinitron mentioned).

To me it seems that they either considered that the average player in act 2 will not have done most optional content, or arrive there with a party that's significantly smaller than 6.
In effect, most quests (main and side) become comparatively easy in act 2, and the most difficult encounters are indeed some optional ones. However, instead of reducing their difficulty, I'd rather increase difficulty of the main and side-quests, making "Hard" the get-go difficulty for experienced players and PotD require real in-depth knowledge of the system and optimized characters.

Also while PotD requires much more use of (de-)buffs and such, nevertheless many encounters still suffer from a much too tame selection of spells/abilities and sub-par AI.
I think that PoE would get a lot less complaints about encounters, if the existing enemies would be made to smartly use more dangerous spells/abilities.

Thing is, PoE showers players with XP (especially the main quest), leveling up makes you A LOT more powerful and the game does a horrible job at pacing.

Take the mega-dungeon for example. It has 15 levels, but you can access it entirely very quickly. Some people will enter it as soon as they unlock it. Others will explore it much later on, on Act 2 or maybe at the end of Act 3. The kobold pit battle on the 2nd floor can be challenging at Lv 5, but it's a cakewalk at Lv 9, and a joke at Lv 12. And the game does absolutely nothing to address this.

Because it doesn't need to? Would you rather have level-scaled enemies there?
(Although I think they can make sense in some cases, just not universally)
If anything, they could have integrated it a bit better into the game, e.g. by making progression mutually depending on each other (say, to go beyond lvl. 8 you need a gizmo you can only find in some Engwithan ruin available later in act 2).
That would at least "sync" the progression better, although I'm sure there would be enough people that wouldn't like such restrictions.

Another example are the bounty hunts.

Yeah, that was off, but they allegedly fixed the rewards in the last patch.

And since a Lv 7 party is extremely more powerful than a Lv 5 party, this doesn't make battles a bit easier or a bit harder like in other RPGs, but rather make them entirely trivial or "a bunch of melee monsters that maul your tank to death in seconds if you don't control them properly with debuffs" (in PotD, that is).

That's not really my experience. Early game scaling is pretty fast, yes, but that's also due to getting better equipment, more party members, getting to know your party, etc.
Overall the power gain seems about equal to other games to me (and there are far worse offenders, especially when they employ some artificial type of scaling mechanism).
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
Part of the issue is that levelling confers too high of a bonus. If levels granted less def and accuracy, players would be consistently challenged (enemy stats should stay the same, however - perhaps by giving them certain certain abilities or talents). By reducing def/acc per level to 2 (from 3), that would barely effect the early game but increase challenge later.

The other part of the issue is that you level too quickly. I think they could control pacing much more easily if all non critical path xp rewards were 25% or 50% of what they are now.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,487
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
However, instead of reducing their difficulty, I'd rather increase difficulty of the main and side-quests, making "Hard" the get-go difficulty for experienced players and PotD require real in-depth knowledge of the system and optimized characters.

Oh, I completely agree. I'm just describing my experience with Path of the Damned difficulty in isolation. It is if course awful that you need to choose the game's "impossible" difficulty level to get a proper challenge.
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
I thought that was because human NPC's don't benefit from PoTD stat increases from creatures? I could be wrong though.

Another issue with the human encounters is that enemy spellcasters don't really use any status ailments that could take your party out of commission. They seem to exclusively use damage spells. On the other hand, quite a few of the creatures have status ailments that they inflict on every normal attack.

I've been hit with debuffs at times that were followed up with an attack that took a hefty chunk off of the life of one of my characters. The AI doesn't seem so good at doing this consistently over time, however.
Well, it does require more elaborate A.I. scripting. Which is why hard counters probably work better in these type of games. :M The only encounter that seemed to purposely employ the tactic of lower defense with debuff -> target the debuffed defense are the druids in Stormwall Gorge with Tanglefoot followed up by Relentless Storm.
 

Atchodas

Augur
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,047
Also while PotD requires much more use of (de-)buffs and such
What are these debuffs people refer to when talking about POTD and "need" of them , the only reson to ever debuff an enemy ( Except Adra Dragon ) is either to set up sneak attack so your rogue does more damage ( its all about damage in the Pillars of balance ) or the debuff is called Mental Binding/Fetid Caress : Paralyzes enemy until its dead , other than that its always better to cast priest buff on your party for even more Accuracy (buffs does not miss unlike the debuffs ) and spam biggest damage spells be it single target or AoE , maybe when you are level 11 ( more than 2 thirds of game done ) and can spam level 1 and 2 spells per encounter maybe then it could be worth to debuff something but by that time you can just auto attack everything to death while afk. Seriously i never ever debuffed anything unless i wanted sneak attack/deathblows never felt the need to , best debuff is Fan of Flames .
This game does not require to use such advanced strategies(debuffing someones stats) ever .
Unless of course people consider stuff like Blinding Strike and such a debuff meanwhile it is 1.2 dmg multi.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,487
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Well, it does require more elaborate A.I. scripting. Which is why hard counters probably work better in these type of games. :M The only encounter that seemed to purposely employ the tactic of lower defense with debuff -> target the debuffed defense are the druids in Stormwall Gorge with Tanglefoot followed up by Relentless Storm.

You could implement the AI to do it in a Rube Goldberg fashion. Have enemy casters cast a debuff on you when they notice your Endurance is low, have enemy fighters make a beeline for you when they notice the debuff. The system is unaware of the tactic as a whole, but it works. That doesn't sound too hard.
 

Zetor

Arcane
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
1,706
Location
Budapest, Hungary
I've only played on Hard (may do POTD with a custom party later), and the last place where I felt the encounters were legitimately difficult/interesting was the Eothas temple with a party of 3/4. Ciphers are just game-breakingly powerful by being able to remove two significant threats in all encounters at will (and keep them locked down until they're dead) without expending per-rest resources... and there were usually not more than two enemies that HAD to be controlled even in the more elaborate 'NPC party' encounters. Maybe this changed with the starting focus reduction, idk. Eventually the summon figurines could also work as long-lasting soft crowd control abilities for tougher boss fights (and some of them were actually fairly effective at killing stuff), removing even more threats and leaving my party free to focus fire enemy groups down one by one.

Re the other discussion about the party becoming too powerful due to side content / grinding / bounties / whatever: This is not really a PoE problem... it's there in pretty much every game (not just RPG) with optional content that rewards players for doing such content by increasing their power, and I'm fairly sure this has been discussed several times on the codex already. Devs need to balance for the crit path, so if you're doing every single sidequest, it'll pretty much destroy all challenge you can encounter on the main quest. PoE actually does OK on this front by shifting most of the difficult content into side quests and side areas (e.g. endless paths) to begin with.


(if it were up to me, I'd design a game with XP only granted after achieving certain objectives on the crit path, and optional content only rewarding the player in ways that don't directly affect player/party power: opening up certain options in later quests, or getting a better ending for a particular faction, etc. It'd also be a boring-as-shit game nobody wants to play, though!)
 
Last edited:

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,278
Location
Terra da Garoa
Your party does defeat enemies who are of a higher level than them frequently, so theoretically level gaps can be overcome.
Yes, and that's when it actually gets interesting. But the opposite isn't true, lower level enemies have barely any chance at you, so they become just annoying busywork.

If, you know, the game had a proper encounter design, with low level creatures mobbing you, attacking from vantage points, making ambushes, had fucking hard counters, made tactical use of terrain or were fought inside elaborate traps, then things could go a lot differently and tactics would matter much more than stats...
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
(if it were up to me, I'd design a game with XP only granted after achieving certain objectives on the crit path, and optional content only rewarding the player in ways that don't directly affect player/party power: opening up certain options in later quests, or getting a better ending for a particular faction, etc. It'd also be a boring-as-shit game nobody wants to play, though!)
I'd play it.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,278
Location
Terra da Garoa
Chrono Cross does this, in a way. Only boss battles make you level up, everything else just gives you items & spells, new companions or better equipment.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Your party does defeat enemies who are of a higher level than them frequently, so theoretically level gaps can be overcome.
Yes, and that's when it actually gets interesting. But the opposite isn't true, lower level enemies have barely any chance at you, so they become just annoying busywork.

If, you know, the game had a proper encounter design, with low level creatures mobbing you, attacking from vantage points, making ambushes, had fucking hard counters, made tactical use of terrain or were fought inside elaborate traps, then things could go a lot differently and tactics would matter much more than stats...

That does happen occasionally, esp. on PotD. Getting swarmed by low-level shadows which attack from all sides is usually an oh shit moment. They apear up to act 4. Even Xaurips can occasionally overwhelm you if they swarm you and you aren't careful.
But I guess your issue is more due to out-leveling significant parts of the content relatively quickly.

Oh, and instead of introducing those fabled hard counters I would be satisfied if the game would use "soft counters" (which the system supports) more often - or at all.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,487
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It does. Enemies with high Fortitude make your Fortitude-attacking abilities suck. Which includes two out of three of Kana's default first level invocations. :negative:
 
Last edited:

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
(if it were up to me, I'd design a game with XP only granted after achieving certain objectives on the crit path, and optional content only rewarding the player in ways that don't directly affect player/party power: opening up certain options in later quests, or getting a better ending for a particular faction, etc. It'd also be a boring-as-shit game nobody wants to play, though!)
I'd play it.
Doing side quests could similarly be a way to build up your dispositions (rep) to open up more options on the crit path. Great idea
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,854
All the gameplay problems with the game are tied to the character system, not the fucking encounter design, not the fucking difficulty. the character system breaks it all and makes it pointless to adress the other things.
 

Atchodas

Augur
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,047
I vote for pathfinding and lack of enemy AI as major problems .

Without AI there cant be encounter design because enemies can only rush forward or cast 1 spell and then come to melee range
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,487
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
All the gameplay problems with the game are tied to the character system, not the fucking encounter design, not the fucking difficulty. the character system breaks it all and makes it pointless to adress the other things.

So you enjoy telling us. Feel free to commission somebody to make an AD&D mod for PoE. Presto, instant GOTY of all GOTYs, getting bogged down fighting lions for two hours is now the best combat ever because Strength doesn't increase bow damage, fighters are no longer tanks, rogues can only backstab once and wizards attack with slings instead of zappy magical bolts
 
Last edited:

tdphys

Learned
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
168
Location
the event horizon
And hence the pacing problem. In most story-driven RPGs, the main quest encounters are likely to be more interestingly designed, more story-relevant, more likely to involve intelligent human foes rather than brute monsters, more likely to yield interesting loot, etc. And so you have a game where the player's sense of pacing is skewed and unexpected. He might spend a great deal of time on dealing with combat that is relatively less interesting, and less time with the combat that's supposed to be more interesting.

.

Re the other discussion about the party becoming too powerful due to side content / grinding / bounties / whatever: This is not really a PoE problem... it's there in pretty much every game (not just RPG) with optional content that rewards players for doing such content by increasing their power, and I'm fairly sure this has been discussed several times on the codex already. Devs need to balance for the crit path, so if you're doing every single sidequest, it'll pretty much destroy all challenge you can encounter on the main quest. PoE actually does OK on this front by shifting most of the difficult content into side quests and side areas (e.g. endless paths) to begin with.


(if it were up to me, I'd design a game with XP only granted after achieving certain objectives on the crit path, and optional content only rewarding the player in ways that don't directly affect player/party power: opening up certain options in later quests, or getting a better ending for a particular faction, etc. It'd also be a boring-as-shit game nobody wants to play, though!)


In my experience from a playthrough on hard and a 2nd ongoing on PotD, the early difficulty is about where I would it expect to be, but once you reach Defiance Bay/Chapter 2, difficulty gets wonky - usually encounters become much too easy (with the exception of the occasional optional wilderness encounter, as Infinitron mentioned).

To me it seems that they either considered that the average player in act 2 will not have done most optional content, or arrive there with a party that's significantly smaller than 6.
In effect, most quests (main and side) become comparatively easy in act 2, and the most difficult encounters are indeed some optional ones. However, instead of reducing their difficulty, I'd rather increase difficulty of the main and side-quests, making "Hard" the get-go difficulty for experienced players and PotD require real in-depth knowledge of the system and optimized characters.

Actually, all the pacing problems can be ascribed to the level progression in pillars. Each level requires 1000 xp more then the previous. This is a very slowly growing level progression.

Thus from 1 - 5 you have a near doubling of experience from the previous level -- this is an exponential leveling. it means that the four fights you did to get to level 2 (250 xp*4 = 1000), you need 16 of those to get to level 5 from 4 ( 4000/250 = 16)... IE , level 1 sidequests don't relatively boost your XP at level 5

2: 1000
3: 3000
4: 6000
5: 10000

Now take the 4 fights it took to get to level 6, ( 5000/4 = 1250xp) , you only need 6.4 of those to progress from level 8 to 9 (8000/1250).
6: 15000
7: 21000
8: 28000
9: 36000

Now take the 4 fights it took to get to level 9, ( 8000/4 = 2000xp) , you only need 5.5 of these to get from level 11 to 12.
10:45000
11:55000
12:66000

So if you have a ton of 6 level sidequest content, it's easy to power to level 9, because you the relative xp gain is almost the same, but it's easy to kill that when the power per level (Accuracy gain, etc) in pillars put you ahead so easily. (which I'm a fan of , by the way, an important part of progressing is, well progressing)


math - just because, we can describe Pillars leveling as xp( level ) = 500* (level + .5) ^2 - 125 ( this is quadratic)

So to get the ultimate balance, you want a function where the difference in level xp gain is somewhat approximate to the level you are at ( by some modifier ) .

xp(n) - xp(n-1) = n ...

Yes everyone, for the ultimate balance, you should have exponential scaling... (take that sawyer)

xp(n) = e^(n) (approximately)


So yes, pacing in pillars was killed by a fear of big numbers.
 
Last edited:

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,854
So you enjoy telling us. Feel free to commission somebody to make an AD&D mod for PoE. Presto, instant GOTY of all GOTYs, getting bogged down fighting lions for two hours is now the best combat ever because Strength doesn't increase bow damage, fighters are no longer tanks, rogues can only backstab once and wizards attack with slings instead of zappy magical bolts
For starters lion have their own climate and terrain in AD&D, so you wouldnt find them in such a retarded place. and not in that number either. But ignoring that, they are 3 hit dice monsters with 3 attacks per round, the ability to jump 30 feet, plus they can only be surprised on a 1, which would mean that they are hidden and will get the drop on you most times, this would go a long way to interesting encounters, instead of you ALWAYS catching your enemies with their pants down and doing the repetitive tank and spank shit you always do (they have far better mobility with that jump too).
Besides fucking that, the basics of the system are wrong, in AD&D even your squishiest party member can take a round or 2 of being attacked by a lion, but in PoE they die in a milisecond, regardless of level, it all comes down to their final deflection, in the first one you have time to react, adapt and even come ahead, and if you fail you pay the price dearly. In poe you cant do shit, and even if you do, it does not matter, the character in question just ends up taking a nap.
Character design is fucking awful and its tied to every creature and most systems in the game, do not mistake it for encounter design, as the universal unified character system sawyer made heavily impacts every part of the game, and makes things like good encounter design impossible.

Holy shit, how do i make you understand just the level of shittyiness this crap has. it is close to the single most agravating and useless piece of shit i have ever seen. AD&D would have been a better alternative, yes, but so would have been almost ANY other system ever.

PS: You are p. fucking ignorant, arent you? In AD&D strength does increase bow damage, fighters are NOT only tanks, they can and do serve other purposes, rogue backstab can be pulled off fairly often at mid and high levels, but high impact limited skills are far more entertaining than low impact spammable skills, unless you are a fucking primate. characters attacking with unlimited magical bullets i dont mind, its just a thing that cheapens the magic in your world, makes it banal and boring, so its at the very least consistent with the rest of the setting.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom