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How did thieves evolve into rogues (ninjas)?

ZagorTeNej

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I wonder if some slightly more in depth mini stealth like sections added to a game would make thieves viable to party based crpgs. Kinda like Shadowrun hacking but more detailed and complicated.

So while your combat group advances through the enemies, your thief goes in, by himself, ahead of the group, or through a different entrance. Depending on his skills, charm/sneaking/lockpicking/assassination etc or choice of tools.... he sort of makes the certain sections easier for the rest of the party, picks of sleeping guards before they get into armor after alarm goes off, tricks the bodyguard to abandon his post, steals enemy wizards components or potions, sets traps in key choke points etc. The he just waits for the party to reach him, without being discovered. You would still have the problem of being all alone with no one to help when shit goes wrong.... but hey choice and consequence.

Interesting idea but it would be wasting resources to add relatively complex class-exclusive content which is a big no-no in modern gaming design. Unless they did a survey and concluded most people are gonna have thief/rogue in their party or something.
 

Archibald

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It doesn't have to be exclusive thief content, other classes could try to do same but be less effective due to lower skill values.
 

laclongquan

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There are two side-by-side causes for the transformation of all utility thief into specialized fighting rogue.

1. Lazy developers dont build games utilized traps and pickpockets. Resources are too much so PP no longer pay. And traps are too weak so there's not much need for a trapdisabler, which is just plain lazy on their parts.
Mind you, that is only half, because if there's spare slot I still keep an all-round char for RP purpose. Which come to second point.

2. Small party size of 3 instead of 4-6, which I think come from the 3D aspect (more character = more resource demands = low FPS). This is a pure technical/hardware aspect. And once you have limit space, you just dont have margin for RP purpose. Effiency is the name of the game.
 

LeStryfe79

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Thief is an excellent subclass of Rogue in 5th edition DnD. Also, the rogue is by far the most powerful class in ToEE. I soloed St. Cuthbert with a rogue due to UMD.
 
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About stealing vs mugging dilema. Sometimes party might want to steal something from people they really don't want dead or hostile. Take a small-town sheriff who has an item crucial for the party but doesn't want to share it. Party can't kill him since it would mean plunging the city into chaos, they can't mug him since he's willing to protect said item with his life. The best possible option is to just pickpocket it from him. Even if the thief is caught he can still talk his way out. Other situation is that the part need to get something from someone but that person cannot know that he's lacking the item.
 

ZagorTeNej

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It doesn't have to be exclusive thief content, other classes could try to do same but be less effective due to lower skill values.

Yeah but if the difference isn't significant enough it leads to "why should I have a Thief in my party? situation which is in modern RPGs resolved by turning him into a melee DPS machine that is better at melee combat than a fighter/warrior. As far as I'm concerned if you're making a class system, make thief skills exclusive to thief.
 

waywardOne

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Fuck trying to click your way to making thieves useful, traps and backstabbing and pickpocket and fuck-all. CRPGs have a perfectly adequate medium to present out-of-combat choices via dialogs and scripts that could absolutely incorporate class distinctions. But just like every other genre, they have to cater to the majority, who are stupid and impatient and, quite frankly, will fuck up those kinds of decisions. How else does an "rpg of the year" let someone who can't cast more than a novice level spell become head of the Mages Guild.
 

pippin

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Fuck trying to click your way to making thieves useful, traps and backstabbing and pickpocket and fuck-all. CRPGs have a perfectly adequate medium to present out-of-combat choices via dialogs and scripts that could absolutely incorporate class distinctions. But just like every other genre, they have to cater to the majority, who are stupid and impatient and, quite frankly, will fuck up those kinds of decisions. How else does an "rpg of the year" let someone who can't cast more than a novice level spell become head of the Mages Guild.

Well, Bluff is a non combat skill :smug:
 
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A mage in Skyrim can simply buff his defense until triggering the trap is no longer an issue. That's a favorite tactic of mine for those corridors with swinging blades because I'd always fuck up the timing anyway. Reminds me of that Order of The Stick comic where the heroes run straight through a blade barrier trap to save time during a chase, causing their pursuers to immediately give up since anyone with that much HP to spare can't be a regular shitty thief.

What I find more baffling is the association between rogues/thieves and archery. How is that a useful skill for someone sneaking around? Bows are large and clunky, and firing one is not at all stealthy. And it's a very different skillset than fighting with knives or swords or whatever, so you wouldn't expect it fall under the class of 'basic' weaponry anyone with a passing interest in combat would know how to use. I'd only expect actual warriors to be marskmen.

More or less because of this imagery:

Also; regarding rogue sneak attack damage: I actually like the way 3rd edition DnD did things. The situations where you get the bonus damage made a lot more sense (basically on anyone who was sufficiently distracted, like someone surrounded or unarmed or off their feet) and it was just extra damage. It implied to me the sort of character who was highly aware and specialized in taking advantage of vulnerable enemies, as one might expect a mugger or pirate or whatever to be. Someone who preys on people be attacking unannounced, outnumbering their foes, attacking unarmed travellers, etc. As opposed to a proper warrior, who is more focused on his own safety and accustomed to fighting people head on, possibly while outnumbered himself.

The bowman rogue is usually envisioned as someone doing guerrilla tactics, firing a few projectiles from the shadows and changing positions until there is one guy left and he gets a dagger to the throat. Kinda like a...ninja, yeah.
 
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octavius

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Fuck trying to click your way to making thieves useful, traps and backstabbing and pickpocket and fuck-all. CRPGs have a perfectly adequate medium to present out-of-combat choices via dialogs and scripts that could absolutely incorporate class distinctions. But just like every other genre, they have to cater to the majority, who are stupid and impatient and, quite frankly, will fuck up those kinds of decisions. How else does an "rpg of the year" let someone who can't cast more than a novice level spell become head of the Mages Guild.

Well, in real life Saudi Arabia heads some gender equality comittee of the UN. So you can always say it's just politics.
 

laclongquan

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You are missing the points

Pickpocket contents and trap locations are all HAND-PLACED if thief are to use their trademark abilities. They need to be caliberated or they would destroy balance. Therefore devs dont invest much time in rebalancing by make them cheap, easy, and of no consequence.
 

Lhynn

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pickpocketing my way out of a quest always made me feel cleverish. eating a trap with muh face always made me feel like a retard. thieves were fun to have. Now they bring nothing interesting, just higher numbers on damage, both on the giving and recieving.
 

Damned Registrations

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Warriors aren't interesting because of their power. They are interesting boring because they got left behind by the wizard, cleric, and druid- none of whom wanted a useless liability to split the rewards with.

Fixed that for you.

Video of exciting thiefy adventure in action:

 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Thieves became Ninjas by (I)nvoking the "Dagger of Thieves".
In 1981. Don't you know anything?
 

baturinsky

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There is no reasonable way to equalize wizards and thieves (or wizards and warriors for that matter) in terms of power.
Use. Magic. Device.
On the other hand, casters also have some spells to emulate rogues.
Fighters suck, though.
 
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Fighters should beat Wizards in direct confrontations 10/10 times. The only reason they didn't in DnD was because the designers were nerds and designed some spells like sequencer just to prevent that. Magical swords should always outdamage magical spells available at the similar levels since they apply magicstuff directly to the target. Reading Conan for a bit should make everyone understand why being a total nerd would not be that useful in a direct combat. DnD made wizards so powerful because it gave them toys they traditionally never had while not giving anything to other classes. A high level DnD wizard (not even an epic level wizard) would wreck Gandalf because Gandalf can't kill things with a single spell, can't maze people, can't cast so many magical defenses, can't use sequencers, can't teleport at wish, can't travel through spheres, can't summon demons at wish etc. On the other hand a high level DnD warrior would probably get wrecked by Achilles or Thor (the comic book one) since total invulnerability and Mjornir is out of their reach. They don't even have strength of Marvel's Thor.
 
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According to the wiki he was strong enough to lift a snake that was big enough to coil around the entire planet. DnD warriors get what? Storm Giant's strength at higher levels?
 

TigerKnee

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I'm actually curious as to what games you people are playing where "Rogues are super strong and out-damage Fighters 24/7"
 

Damned Registrations

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According to the wiki he was strong enough to lift a snake that was big enough to coil around the entire planet. DnD warriors get what? Storm Giant's strength at higher levels?
They don't even get that. Maybe through a magic item, sure. But then what item is the wizzard using? Metamagic rods that let him cast far more powerful spells? Scrolls to cast spells even they can't manage yet? Never mind that the spellcasters can actually make the magic items, while the warrior can only get whatever the party lets him have.

The only thing of note fighters get in DnD is more attacks per round. Which is pretty fucking laughable. Being skilled enough to fight two or three common soldiers at once doesn't mean jack shit when you're fighting enemies that can fly or turn invisible at will. Never mind that said enemies can generally also murder a dozen common soldiers in a straight up fight anyways.

Thor is closer to a wizard anyways. He can fly, shoot lightning and change the weather.
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
According to the wiki he was strong enough to lift a snake that was big enough to coil around the entire planet. DnD warriors get what? Storm Giant's strength at higher levels?
Thor is closer to a wizard anyways. He can fly, shoot lightning and change the weather.

Yeah but using his inhuman strength and skill and not magical rituals and shit like that. He flies by throwing his hammer, not by chanting ancient spells. There is no reason a DnD warrior shouldn't get access to these sort of things.

I'm actually curious as to what games you people are playing where "Rogues are super strong and out-damage Fighters 24/7"

Probably Pillars of Eternity.
 

J_C

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According to the wiki he was strong enough to lift a snake that was big enough to coil around the entire planet. DnD warriors get what? Storm Giant's strength at higher levels?
Thor is closer to a wizard anyways. He can fly, shoot lightning and change the weather.

Yeah but using his inhuman strength and skill and not magical rituals and shit like that. He flies by throwing his hammer, not by chanting ancient spells. There is no reason a DnD warrior shouldn't get access to these sort of things.

I'm actually curious as to what games you people are playing where "Rogues are super strong and out-damage Fighters 24/7"

Probably Pillars of Eternity.
And Dragon Age (all of them).
 

baturinsky

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I see Fighter->Cleric->Wizard->Rogue as a low->high complexity progression. Rogue has a lot of potential, but needs both world detailed enough (thanks to good DM or game designer) to give him the means to fullfill this potential, as well as a smart enough player. Fighter is only really good at smashing thing's face in, but can do it in his sleep, with barely any preparation and as long as needed. Others are in-between.
 

Keldryn

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Fighters should beat Wizards in direct confrontations 10/10 times. The only reason they didn't in DnD was because the designers were nerds and designed some spells like sequencer just to prevent that. Magical swords should always outdamage magical spells available at the similar levels since they apply magicstuff directly to the target. Reading Conan for a bit should make everyone understand why being a total nerd would not be that useful in a direct combat. DnD made wizards so powerful because it gave them toys they traditionally never had while not giving anything to other classes. A high level DnD wizard (not even an epic level wizard) would wreck Gandalf because Gandalf can't kill things with a single spell, can't maze people, can't cast so many magical defenses, can't use sequencers, can't teleport at wish, can't travel through spheres, can't summon demons at wish etc.

One important aspect of the balance between classes in D&D which tends to get overlooked is that, originally, the "endgame" of D&D started around 10th level. It generally varied between 9th and 11th level, depending on the character class in question.

This was referred to as "Name level", and this was where:
  • characters stopped earning a new title each level (for fighters, it stayed at "Lord", for thieves it was "Master Thief", etc)
  • characters hit point progression flattened and they gained from 1 to 3 HP per level, instead of rolling a hit die and adding CON bonus
  • cumulative XP required to gain the next level stopped doubling and required a set amount for each individual level. This amount per level was generally equal to the cumulative XP required to reach Name level (250,000 for fighters; 220,000 for thieves; 375,000 for magic-users, etc). Given that the gold piece value of treasure acquired was the primary source of XP in all versions of D&D prior to AD&D 2e, it is clear that advancement after this point was assumed to be very slow; a party of 6 fighters would need to acquire treasure worth 1,500,000 gp for each of them to gain a level after 9th. Looking at the Treasure Type tables indicates that it would take a very, very long time to locate this much treasure. You'd probably have to defeat more than two dozen ancient dragons in their lairs to acquire this amount of treasure.
  • upon reaching Name level, characters could build a stronghold and attract followers, the details varying significantly from one class to another (fighters would attract their own militia upon building a castle, thieves would attract apprentices when building a hideout, etc). It's not that characters couldn't build a stronghold prior to this point, but this was where the campaign was assumed to shift gears and this shift in focus was built into the rules
  • primary spellcasters (magic-users, clerics, etc) were just acquiring the ability to cast 5th or 6th level spells

In addition, non-human characters tended to hit their level limits for their thematically-appropriate classes around Name level (dwarf fighters, elf magic-users), with the level limits for other classes being a bit lower. Thieves were the exception, as every race except the half-orc had unlimited advancement in the thief class. In the AD&D 1e Player's Handbook, druids topped out at 14th level, period (and there could only be a single druid of this level in world, with limited numbers of druids at each level leading up to 14th).

The original (1974) D&D game topped out around this point, with the higher-level stuff (such as 7th to 9th level spells) first appearing in the supplements. AD&D 1st Edition was essentially a compiled and expanded version of OD&D plus the Greyhawk, Blackmoor, and Eldrich Wizardry supplements. The 1981 Basic/Expert D&D game was intended as a revised and streamlined update of OD&D on its own (plus the thief class from the Greyhawk supplement). These versions of D&D implied that PCs would generally settle down and mostly retire from active adventuring as they reached Name levels; the players would create new lower-level characters (as it was the norm for players to have a stable of characters and switch between them from one adventure to the next). When you look at the stats of the toughest monsters in the AD&D 1e monster books, it's clear that they are designed to challenge characters around Name level.

Early versions of D&D were balanced at the campaign level, and Gygax's playtest groups played very frequently. It was expected that PC deaths would be fairly common, that there were likely more players in the campaign than were present for any one session, and that players would create many characters for use in the campaign (either to replace fallen PCs or so as to be able to choose the best PC for a particular adventure). Thus, the randomness inherent in character generation would balance out over time; there wouldn't be many rangers or paladins in a campaign, due to their high stat requirements, but over the course of a campaign, it was likely that a player would be able to qualify for such a class at least once.

This is all rather long, but these inherent assumptions of early D&D are an important piece in understanding the balance between character classes and why the originally squishy thieves evolved into acrobatic ninjas. The design of early D&D has often been accused of being arbitrary and nonsensical, but it was never subject to a comprehensive, top-down process of design. Its design was very organic, with the rules reflecting what worked best in those early playtest groups.

Over time, the way that people played D&D diverged from these assumptions. The modern convention of the same group of players meeting at regular intervals, where each player has one character that he plans to take from 1st level through to 20th level, is very, very different from how it was played in the 80s. The "adventure path" paradigm was already becoming prominent by the time of AD&D 2e (Dragonlance being the prototype of this), but it was 3rd Edition where the rules were changed to reflect these "modern" sensibilities. Unfortunately, the designers of 3e seem to have lacked a deep understanding of the implicit assumptions which informed the design of AD&D, and we got a system that, in hindsight, was far more unbalanced and broken than any early version of D&D. They recognized that very few AD&D games ran long enough for players to get to use all of that high-level content, so they designed 3e such that players could take characters from 1st to 20th level with weekly play in an 18-month campaign (which their research determined was the average amount of time before a campaign fizzled out).

The 3e rules implicitly put a stronger emphasis on combat than did AD&D. By default, combat is more tactical than in AD&D, with 6-second rounds (instead of 1-minute), which makes movement rates much more relevant. On top of that you have attacks of opportunity and the fact that rogues' sneak attack ability depends on flanking, so accurate tracking of position in combat becomes very important. This makes combat take longer, especially when you start using a battle grid. And when combat starts to take up a greater portion of the session's play time, players who don't get to contribute much start to get bored (rightfully).

XP for gold is long gone at this point, with XP being awarded for overcoming "challenges" -- usually combat, but also overcoming traps. But it requires a LOT of traps for rogue to obtain enough XP to go up a level; AD&D thieves were good at stealing valuables, and they advanced in levels quickly, so a well-played thief could advance several levels without engaging in much face-to-face combat. This is virtually impossible for a rogue in 3e if you play by the book. The bulk of XP in 3e comes from defeating opponents in combat, and 4e continued this paradigm -- and also made rogues even more ninja-like. Given the length of a typical 4e combat encounter, a player whose character has little combat utility might as well not even bother showing up.

The Companion (1984) and Master (1985) rules sets for the Mentzer revision of Basic/Expert D&D were designed to focus on 15th through 36th level characters, but they show the artifacts of earlier assumptions of play (halflings stopped at 8th level; elves at 10th; dwarves at 12, with weird "attack ranks" to allow them some measure of progression that still paled next to any human characters). Mentzer himself admits that little to none of this material was ever playtested before release.

TL;DR: character classes in early versions of D&D were actually pretty well balanced when you recognize that 9th level characters were considered "high level" and entering the endgame phase of the campaign. The truly world-shattering magics (7th level spells and up) were never intended to see regular play. Thieves didn't need to be good in combat because they could advance in level by sneaking around, breaking into places, and stealing valuable treasures. Level advancement for everyone was far more dependent upon achieving goals (finding the treasure and getting it out of the dungeon) than it was upon killing monsters standing in the way of those goals, so there was an incentive to avoid unnecessary combat. Engaging every enemy in combat was generally a stupid thing to do, and the XP reward was often not worth the risk or the resources consumed.

It was actually a very, very different game than the D&D of the 2000s (and even the 90s). Early D&D had more of a focus on strategic and operational play; planning and preparation were key, and cautious play was rewarded. Modern D&D has a stronger tactical focus, with much of the "boring" operational planning and preparation glossed over and there are more safeguards built in so that players don't need to be quite so cautious (not entirely a bad thing, as very cautious players can make the game excruciating to play).
 
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