PoE review and comprehensive comparison to Baldur's Gate

[Metatron]

If you rest spammed (or abused Wish) and had spells galore for every fight then yeah sure.

Why wouldn't you rest when needed though? It's not like you got a lot of punishment for doing so apart from the occasional rest encounter.

BG series on the whole didn't really have tanks, it's a bullshit MMO concept that unfortunately crawled its way into single player RPGs. Fighters had plenty of health and were hard to hit (excluding special cases like Kensai kit) but they were monsters in melee that could deal a ton of damage not immovable walls that glued up enemies and then tickled them while the rest of the party did the killing.

There were no mmorpg-like taunts but the tank was just the guy you'd put in front, you'd tank through positioning. According to party stats my fighter in PoE is dealing some pretty heavy damage as well though so that's not really that different. He's not just some wow-like meatshield.

Rangers get useful later on because they can cast some useful low level Priest self-buffs (like Armor of Faith) which make them better in combat, they also have kits like Stalker which is great (a Fighter/Thief almost with better THAC0 progression and more HP) and Archer which is the best ranged combat class.

Unless you're actively gimping yourself by e.g. avoiding rest meta-gaming wise casting that Armor of Faith won't make a lot of difference.

PST combat only had a superficial similarity to BG2 and is overall by far the worst part of the game, don't see how it proves anything in regards to BG2 combat and systems.

It's exactly the same system at its core, just with some less fancy icing on the cake making PS:T objectively worse combat-wise but not in a way they play fundamentally different.

Sawyers system is deeply flawed but this sudden hype of AD&D 2nd edition suggests nostalgia goggles much.

 

[Mareus]

3- Romances in BG2 were shit even for Bioware standards.

I of course disagree. And since you are speaking of standards, can you name one RPG which did it better? 1 please.

MotB with Safiya. From an emotional standpoint falls terribly flat, but from a storytelling perspective it adds quite a bit of, what's the word, gravitas? to the main plot.

PST "romance" with Fall from Grace is also a good example of something that brings interesting thematical stuff to the table, although I wouldn't call it romance, personally.

If we're going to talk about more Biowarean style romances, I'll go with Alpha Protocol, as they fit right in with the recurrent theme in the spy genre of being a bad ass womanizer spy, and are corny and cheesy in a self aware way, making some of them enjoyable/funny.

And that's it, basically, of romances I somewhat enjoyed. Any other game I mention would be discussing which shit smell worse.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

So let me get this straight, you mention 1 romance which "from an emotional standpoint falls terribly flat", and another one which you "wouldn't call it romance, personally" and another one which "are corny and cheesy"

That is what I call shooting yourself in the foot, mate. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Bleed the Man]

3- Romances in BG2 were shit even for Bioware standards.

I of course disagree. And since you are speaking of standards, can you name one RPG which did it better? 1 please.

MotB with Safiya. From an emotional standpoint falls terribly flat, but from a storytelling perspective it adds quite a bit of, what's the word, gravitas? to the main plot.

PST "romance" with Fall from Grace is also a good example of something that brings interesting thematical stuff to the table, although I wouldn't call it romance, personally.

If we're going to talk about more Biowarean style romances, I'll go with Alpha Protocol, as they fit right in with the recurrent theme in the spy genre of being a bad ass womanizer spy, and are corny and cheesy in a self aware way, making some of them enjoyable/funny.

And that's it, basically, of romances I somewhat enjoyed. Any other game I mention would be discussing which shit smell worse.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

So let me get this straight, you mention 1 romance which "from an emotional standpoint falls terribly flat", and another one which you "wouldn't call it romance, personally" and another one which "are corny and cheesy"

That is what I call shooting yourself in the foot, mate. Thanks for proving my point.

I really don't know what you were expecting I would answer. But anyway, I'm really not interested in any romance debate, I was just trying to clarify my initial post.

 

[thesoup]

OP is a fag and his mom is a whore.

Nah he is just an every day simulationist.

Hereabouts we call this kind "a fucking larper".

And being a "fucking larper" makes you a faggot because....?

It's just science.

 

[Lord Andre]

Since no one else will say it:

"OP you are a gigantic fagot. What's the point of posting your review on a forum and then insulting everyone who doesn't agree with you, even those that took the time to write a polite rebutal. You are a nobody and your review is nothing more than a pedantically written opinion. Did you expect your shitty little journalist larping excrement would receive universal acclaim and be featured on the front page because you are such a special little snowflake ? Fuck off you self-important cunt."

Sorry, but we were all thinking it...

 

[thesoup]

Since no one else will say it:

"OP you are a gigantic fagot. What's the point of posting your review on a forum and then insulting everyone who doesn't agree with you, even those that took the time to write a polite rebutal. You are a nobody and your review is nothing more than a pedantically written opinion. Did you expect your shitty little journalist larping excrement would receive universal acclaim and be featured on the front page because you are such a special little snowflake ? Fuck off you self-important cunt."

Sorry, but we were all thinking it...

Except I already did, on page 1.

OP is a fag and his mom is a whore.

edit
Just skimmed past a few overly pseudo intellectual sentences. My original point still stands.

 

[Lord Andre]

I know, but it made for a better introduction and I kind of wanted to call him a fagot too. You should get the original credit though. Have a brofist as a token of my apology.

 

[mondblut]

Hereabouts we call this kind "a fucking larper".

And being a "fucking larper" makes you a faggot because....?

Because larping is for fags, duh.

 

[Gord]

Biggest disagreement is on character creation. Honestly to me it feels like PoE has three classes. Tank, DPS and support. There is nothing unique about any class because each class can do everything anyway. It really hurts the team dynamic, party building side of things too. There's no unique dude you are really happy to pick up because he can pick locks, or druid guy who can disable mages, or priest who can protect your team from mind control etc. In PoE those choices feel completely arbitrary, what's the difference between a mage and a druid? Between a fighter and barbarian? Why would I pick one over the other, what does one add to my party that the other doesn't? Too much focus on standardizing everyone and their abilities into a numbers game, nothing unique to be seen.

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are wrong for multiple reasons:
1. There is also a healer class, so your categorization is flawed right from the start.
2. I think you can divide BG2 classes into similar categories. Paladins, Fighters, Barbarians and Rangers being tanks; clerics and druids being healer or support class, mages and monks being main damage dealers with some support abilities, rogues being a support class, etc.
3. When you say that each class can do everything anyway, the same could be said about BG2 with multiclassing or dual classing. A cleric/mage/kensai is pretty much a jack of all trades, for example. The only difference is how PoE implements multiclassing which is slightly more flexible. And I don't understand the argument where flexibility is something bad.
4. The difference between mage and a druid is druid's animal form which makes him a pretty universal class which can adapt to different situations and is therefore very useful to have. Fighters are the best tanks in the game, while Barbarians can attack multiple enemies at the same time at the expense of some defensive abilities. I mean, read the descriptions of what each class does better than other. I think your point is pretty meek.

The assertions are mostly wrong, imo.
Sure, there's no class dedicated to any of the skills you can take. A fighter could be just as good at picking locks or setting traps as a rogue, if he raises the Mechanics skill, or as good at reading scrolls as a mage/cleric/whatever when raising lore.
But that's about it. There are otherwise very major differences between the classes:
Try tanking with a wizard and see how well it works for you.
Spells are also different between classes - wizards are best at CC and have some damage spells of varying efficiency, priests have healing and (de)buffing and druids are most efficient as damage dealers (on top of being somewhat capable as melee fighters).

Sure, the base classes are somewhat more flexible in PoE than in the DnD-based IE games, but given that you could multi/dual-class in them, I could use a similar hyperbole there as well if I wanted to be stupid and pass a strength of the system as a fault.

 

[Mareus]

Since no one else will say it:

"OP you are a gigantic fagot. What's the point of posting your review on a forum and then insulting everyone who doesn't agree with you, even those that took the time to write a polite rebutal. You are a nobody and your review is nothing more than a pedantically written opinion. Did you expect your shitty little journalist larping excrement would receive universal acclaim and be featured on the front page because you are such a special little snowflake ? Fuck off you self-important cunt."

Sorry, but we were all thinking it...

Hahahaha! Omfg what a butthurt nancy. Calling me a faggot while whining how I am not polite to people? Now, that right there is extreme faggotry, son.

 

[LizardWizard]

BG2/SCS+modz>BG2>BG/SCS+modz>PoE>BG

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Why wouldn't you rest when needed though? It's not like you got a lot of punishment for doing so apart from the occasional rest encounter.

Because I found it cheap, stupid and detrimental to my enjoyment of the game. It was far more satisfying trying to expend all resources available and rely on other party members as well than rest spam and nuke everything.

There were no mmorpg-like taunts but the tank was just the guy you'd put in front, you'd tank through positioning. According to party stats my fighter in PoE is dealing some pretty heavy damage as well though so that's not really that different. He's not just some wow-like meatshield.

What constitutes for heavy damage actually? I did a semi-completionist run and Eder ended up doing less than 1/4 damage of my rogue overall, that's a glorified meatshield. Sure the fighter in BG series could tank but he could also be ranged or melee damage dealer, he wasn't pigeonholed into a line-holding role and was overall far more effective in disposing of opposition. For me fighters should be dangerous in combat primarily because they can fuck you up, not because it takes ages to bring one down.

I just don't like that class concept and that it has become such a trend in modern RPGs, I'd throw it in the trash bin along with DPS, banalce and crafting.

Unless you're actively gimping yourself by e.g. avoiding rest meta-gaming wise casting that Armor of Faith won't make a lot of difference.

25% damage reduction from everything is nothing to sneeze at, especially when combined with few other damage reduction resources.

It's exactly the same system at its core, just with some less fancy icing on the cake making PS:T objectively worse combat-wise but not in a way they play fundamentally different.

CC system and encounter design/content are not icing on the cake for me, they are the cake.

Sawyers system is deeply flawed but this sudden hype of AD&D 2nd edition suggests nostalgia goggles much.

I'm not hyping it, I'm saying I personally enjoyed it more for the most part (I do prefer some things in PoE).

 

[Kuurth]

 

[Jarpie]

I'm now convinced that Mareus is just trolling, no one with that many messages and that join date could be such a massive butthurt faggot and stayed in here for so long.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

He was away for years and only recently re-emerged full of anger

 

[Hatred]

I'm confuzzled. He doesn't really seem that angry to me. He is having to deal with a lot of people calling him a faggot (and half of them not even spelling it right) who aren't addressing his points. I'd say he is being fairly polite considering, even if I do disagree with nearly all of it.

 

[Mareus]

I'm confuzzled. He doesn't really seem that angry to me. He is having to deal with a lot of people calling him a faggot (and half of them not even spelling it right) who aren't addressing his points. I'd say he is being fairly polite considering, even if I do disagree with nearly all of it.

People saying that I am angry are probably the ones being butthurt. I mean, if I was an easy to agitate kind of person, why in god's name would I put out a poll where I allow people to call me a fucking idiot and tell me to go kill myself? (Yeah kids, knock yourself out by posting its because I am stupid. Hahaha, so funny)

Anyway the way I see it, its all in good jest and I am just having a bit of fun by being rude to people who don't deserve any respect to begin with - evidenced by the quality of their responses as you yourself have observed. Intelligent people have received intelligent responses, even if we might disagree on certain design values.

 

[Mareus]

I have updated my review by taking into account valid criticism I have received, which was from 2 or 3 people altogether. Makes you wonder about the continuing decline of the codex, despite the incline in gaming. Hmm...

 

[Hatred]

Makes you wonder about the continuing decline of the codex, despite the incline in gaming. Hmm...

Um. Your review was good even if I couldn't agree with much of it. The codex being a good place and games being on the incline is a bit hard to believe though. Maybe after SitS and Underrail are released you can say there is 'incline' PoE isnt 'incline' if its barely matching up to BG2 though (and it isnt imo, not even fucking close)

 

[Mareus]

Makes you wonder about the continuing decline of the codex, despite the incline in gaming. Hmm...

Um. Your review was good even if I couldn't agree with much of it. The codex being a good place and games being on the incline is a bit hard to believe though. Maybe after SitS and Underrail are released you can say there is 'incline' PoE isnt 'incline' if its barely matching up to BG2 though (and it isnt imo, not even fucking close)

Perhaps you misunderstood the review then, because I don't think PoE is as good as BG2. BG2 is clearly a better game. I just don't think that PoE is horrible in comparison to BG2 as some people claim, and the fact that it comes so close is by itself a huge incline for me, because I consider BG2 to be one of the best games ever created.

Furthermore, with games such as Dark Souls, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, Divinity Original Sin, Shadowrun: Dragonfall, new Torment just behind the corner, etc... I think that incline is obvious. Finally I am playing games again and enjoying it - even if all of those games are slightly flawed.

And lastly, I know that tastes differ, but usually when I ask people why they disagree with me or when I ask them why they think BG2 sucks, they give such retarded arguments that I immediately lose all respect from them. Like, I asked one guy on the codex that actually liked BG2, what was his problem with PoE, and all he had was the same problems that plague BG2. For example, the game not having aimed shots, not being TB, lack of meaningful choices and consequences, game having dragons,... and I am like... are you fucking kidding me? If you hate PoE because of those things, then you should hate BG2 as well! Fucking retard.

And I have similar experiences when asking people why they hate BG2. Usually they focus on what the game is not, like... its not TB, its doesn't have aimed shots, it doesn't have choices and consequences, you can't swim, you can't jump, you can't climb, etc... Now the problem with such an analysis is that it doesn't tell you anything about what BG2 is. It only tells you what it is not, and that is a flawed analysis - even without going into the obvious flaws with such reasoning due to many of the criticism falling into purely personal preference. Like preferring TB to RTwP. And not only that, but if I start counting all the things you can't do in Fallout or PST or any other game for that matter, I could turn any game into a steaming pile of shit. I mean, if BG2 hater wants to take against BG2 the fact that you can't do aimed shots, I want to take against Fallout the fact that it can't do party based combat. And we can play that game of what the game is not until someone comes to the conclusion that there is something wrong with such reasoning, or that all games are utter shit. That is why I have never EVER heard 1 good argument as to why BG2 is as horrible as its haters claim.

But hey... I can't force people to make valid arguments if they are stupid.

 

[Hatred]

Makes you wonder about the continuing decline of the codex, despite the incline in gaming. Hmm...

Um. Your review was good even if I couldn't agree with much of it. The codex being a good place and games being on the incline is a bit hard to believe though. Maybe after SitS and Underrail are released you can say there is 'incline' PoE isnt 'incline' if its barely matching up to BG2 though (and it isnt imo, not even fucking close)

Perhaps you misunderstood the review then, because I don't think PoE is as good as BG2. BG2 is clearly a better game. I just don't think that PoE is horrible in comparison to BG2 as some people claim, and the fact that it comes so close is by itself a huge incline for me, because I consider BG2 to be one of the best games ever created.

Furthermore, with games such as Dark Souls, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity, Divinity Original Sin, Shadowrun: Dragonfall, new Torment just behind the corner, etc... I think that incline is obvious. Finally I am playing games again and enjoying it - even if all of those games are slightly flawed.

And lastly, I know that tastes differ, but usually when I ask people why they disagree with me or when I ask them why they think BG2 sucks, they give such retarded arguments that I immediately lose all respect from them. Like, I asked one guy on the codex that actually liked BG2, what was his problem with PoE, and all he had was the same problems that plague BG2. For example, the game not having aimed shots, not being TB, lack of meaningful choices and consequences, game having dragons,... and I am like... are you fucking kidding me? If you hate PoE because of those things, then you should hate BG2 as well! Fucking retard.

And I have similar experiences when asking people why they hate BG2. Usually they focus on what the game is not, like... its not TB, its doesn't have aimed shots, it doesn't have choices and consequences, you can't swim, you can't jump, you can't climb, etc... Now the problem with such an analysis is that it doesn't tell you anything about what BG2 is. It only tells you what it is not, and that is a flawed analysis - even without going into the obvious flaws with such reasoning due to many of the criticism falling into purely personal preference. Like preferring TB to RTwP. And not only that, but if I start counting all the things you can't do in Fallout or PST or any other game for that matter, I could turn any game into a steaming pile of shit. I mean, if BG2 hater wants to take against BG2 the fact that you can't do aimed shots, I want to take against Fallout the fact that it can't do party based combat. And we can play that game of what the game is not until someone comes to the conclusion that there is something wrong with such reasoning, or that all games are utter shit. That is why I have never EVER heard 1 good argument as to why BG2 is as horrible as its haters claim.

But hey... I can't force people to make valid arguments if they are stupid.

Your review has been edited a bit since I first read it. It was 5-5 before and also you had PoE down as more re-playable.(im glad you changed it to 6-4 btw) Tbh I aint spent my life playing RPGs. I played BG/IWD and FO when I was younger. Thens pent a fair amount of time on those total war games and being distracted by life. Then I moved on to competitive games. A lot easier to not complain about the difficulty of a game when it comes with the pleasure of making real people mad about how bad they are.
I got DA:O when it came out though thinking ooh like BG !! awesome. Then I played it and got sad. Same thing with FO3. So back to killing noobs it was. I've played D:OS and WL2 thinking about the good old days and ... then I went back to PvP disappointed. Now again with PoE. PoE was the one I was really hoping wouldn't suck too.
Maybe I am a bit harsh or impossible to please, but right now all my hope for this mystical 'incline' everyone here talks about lies with Underrail and SitS. I cant call WL2 or PoE 'incline'.

 

[ArchAngel]

Why does it seem like the whole article OP is comparing Pillars to the first Baldurs Gate except for a small disclaimer in the introduction? Is it that hard to type a "2" now and then?

It's confusing cause clearly BG2 > PoE > BG1

Only thing PoE has over BG1 are sidequests and a bit more C&C outside the main quest.

 

[Lhynn]

I cant call WL2 or PoE 'incline'.

I can, years of decline were really harsh. Better rpgs have come out than those two in the last couple years tho, and even better games are coming. The biggest disappointment about both those titles is who made them.

 

[gunman]

I'm late in the game and the combat became Baldur's Gate: have one tank in the front with maxed defenses and the back row firing bows, in this case guns. With enhanced arquebuses/blunderbuses/pistols my spellcasters rarely need to ever cast spells as they wipe out mobs with several salvos.

 

[RK47]

Good thing they removed the whole spell per rest at high levels eh?