Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[Infinitron]

Ultimately you're comparing something that is uneven between these games. Few will disagree that BG2 shines on this front.

When we're talking character comparisons (e.g. Sarevok v Irenicus), we're talking writing. I don't understand complaints about Jon Irenicus as a villain when compared to Sarevok. In terms of characterization, style, exposition method and interaction, the former is just a far more fleshed out and better realized villain.

Obviously, I'm not throwing BG1 as a whole under the bus.

It's not always that simple though. The effectiveness of a villain's portrayal is also influenced by the game's overall sense of pacing. For example, Irenicus' menace may have been diminished for many players due to how you can spend hours and hours ignoring him after his explosive introduction.

Sarevok doesn't suffer from this problem because BG1 doesn't frame your mission in the world as "chase Sarevok" until much, much later. (It'd be interesting to think of an alternative BG1 storyline where your character immediately began tracking down Sarevok in the woods rather than going off to the Friendly Arm Inn and Nashkel).

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I was probably too old when I played both games to really care, but I never gave a shit about either Sarevok or Irenicus. To me the main vilain in a D&D game is the monster manual, the rest is just fluff. I guess being Spoiled by Dark Sun : Shattered Lands, in which there is no big vilain but a whole hostile world, didn't help either.

 

[Stokowski]

For example, Irenicus' menace may have been diminished for many players due to how you can spend hours and hours ignoring him after his explosive introduction.

Kinda hard to ignore the dream sequences, though. (Although, yes, they are limited in number so you could spend many hours after those have concluded ...)

Then again, you could go for whole minutes in BG1 without another Sarevok-sent assassin.

 

[Xeon]

(It'd be interesting to think of an alternative BG1 storyline where your character immediately began tracking down Sarevok in the woods rather than going off to the Friendly Arm Inn and Nashkel).

I am kinda sure the MC would have died and that will be the end of the story. Seravok was much stronger than the MC at that point.

I kinda liked Seravok showing up later in the Library and introducing himself with his name spelt backward or something, I didn't know that was Seravok until later when one of the teachers showed up at the jail to teleport me to the underground dungeon I think. Other than that both games made it clear who is good and who is not.

Edit: Added a quote since I was kinda late in posting directly, and can't really think of a better way to describe what I mean with the last part at the end.

 

[Lone Wolf]

That's just it, you don't really get to ignore Irenicus. There's a Spellhold cutscene not long after the explosive introduction you mention. Then there's the nymph quest, the Spider Queen, Firkraag etc. Irenicus is totally woven into your experience of the game. You can go a few hours without crossing paths with him, I suppose, but unless you're planning to stay in Chapter 2 forever, you're going to chance upon his 27 minutes of cutscenes with regularity. And that's not including the constant references to him sprinkled throughout the game.

Besides, the entire point of Chapter 2 is to gather the resources to confront Irenicus, even as his sister (unbeknownst to you) lays siege to Athkatla. Everything you do has that tangible goal/ultimate destination in mind. The player's pace is set by the player; to the game the endeavor is fairly urgent.

I can't think of a single aspect of character or villainy that Sarevok does better. If his only advantage is that the game shunts him away until the last two chapters, and isn't really 'centered' on him, anyway, then that's faint praise, indeed.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

I am kinda sure the MC would have died and that will be the end of the story. Seravok was much stronger than the MC at that point.

That's obvious, but I think Infinitron is thinking beyond that. Say the story goes along a much more stealthier path, the PC follows/tracks Sarevock, finds out who he is, then tries to figure out how to take down someone so well guarded... The possibilities are pretty cool actually, especially if there was a 'global' type mechanic that could warn Sarevok to the players prying and scheming, turning the game into a game of mental chess/back and forth.

 

[Athelas]

I don't think either BG game had good dramatic pacing or a good villain. In both cases, the main plot feels more like something the player character stumbles into than something he's really involved in. All the praise for Irenicus is particularly weird, since I thought the attempts to humanize and flesh out his character were very underwhelming, and don't do anything to change the stock nature of his character, that of a power-hungry villain.

Actually, I don't think a classic dramatic/conflict storyline really works for an RPG - there's no tension; the player and company will always win (unless you do something contrived like kill off a party member in a cutscene). Instead, the story in an RPG should be about exploring the setting or exploring the protagonist himself, or both.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Can't argue against that logic.

 

[Zed]

Sarevok and Irenicus are better than 99% of all other CRPG villains.

Sarevok is iconic, and looks badass. A lot of BG is about figuring out who the hell he is and why he's doing it. As you deal with his henchmen, you discover just a little more about his plans and his character. It's power hunger on an impressive level.

Irenicus comes off as a better-than-thou character, and the game largely feels like a revenge story from the PC side. He's an articulate and smart fellow, so he makes you wonder why he's being such a bad guy.

Both "reveals" come late in both games, but I like that.

 

[Athelas]

Sarevok and Irenicus are better than 99% of all other CRPG villains.

No, not really. CRPG's released around the same time like Fallout and PST had markedly better villains.

 

[Xeon]

I liked Seravok as a villain all the way, I liked his journal (kinda dumb for someone that meticulous or something writing a journal of everything he did) but I thought that was pretty good.

Irenecus, he was a bad ass at the start then the magic as the guy in the post said, wore off or something. I thought he will be much more than that or something but,

Spoiler

I hope I understood it right, he was driven by his Sister Godhi to betray the Elves and then he got upset when they banished them, that's all it took to swear his revenge. da fuk. I mean sure he wanted the power of the grand tree to be a god or something but that's his story.

That's obvious, but I think Infinitron is thinking beyond that. Say the story goes along a much more stealthier path, the PC follows/tracks Sarevock,

Yea, sorry. I thought he meant following Seravok because he was spent[?] or something because of the fight with Gorion.

 

[Zed]

Sarevok and Irenicus are better than 99% of all other CRPG villains.

No, not really. CRPG's released around the same time like Fallout and PST had markedly better villains.

I disagree.

The villain of PST (unless you're counting your previous incarnation as a villain) was hunting you. He wasn't next to you, or ahead of you. He was after you. Just chasing until he caught up in the end.
The Master was just an encounter at the end.

Sarevok and Irenicus moved around the world just as you did, at the same time. They had their projects and agents around doing all sort of stuff. There was more to them.

 

[Athelas]

I disagree.

The villain of PST (unless you're counting your previous incarnation as a villain) was hunting you. He wasn't next to you, or ahead of you. He was after you. Just chasing until he caught up in the end.
The Master was just an encounter at the end.

Sarevok and Irenicus moved around the world just as you did, at the same time. They had their projects and agents around doing all sort of stuff. There was more to them.

The Master's history can be pieced together by reading various holodisks and by talking to Harold. He's very much active, as evidenced by the fact that Vault 13 is invaded by mutants after a set amount of days or the fact that you can get captured by mutants at Necropolis. There's also lots of other things that point at the mutant's activity, like the quest in the Hub that's about finding out what happened to the missing caravans.

The Transcendent One isn't hunting TNO, he's trying to keep TNO away from him as far possible (because he knows their shared link can allow TNO to destroy him), primarily by making him forget. He sends shadows after TNO for that purpose (which start to spawn in Sigil after a certain point in the game), destroys the skulls in the Pillar of Skulls that know his identity and does all sorts of things to prevent TNO from ever catching up to him. There are clues all throughout the game that point to the Transcendent One's activity.

Both of these are executed much better than the villains of the BG games.

 

[Zed]

I disagree.

The villain of PST (unless you're counting your previous incarnation as a villain) was hunting you. He wasn't next to you, or ahead of you. He was after you. Just chasing until he caught up in the end.
The Master was just an encounter at the end.

Sarevok and Irenicus moved around the world just as you did, at the same time. They had their projects and agents around doing all sort of stuff. There was more to them.

The Master's history can be pieced together by reading various holodisks and by talking to Harold. He's very much active, as evidenced by the fact that Vault 13 is invaded by mutants after a set amount of days or the fact that you can get captured by mutants at Necropolis. There's also lots of other things that point at the mutant's activity, like the quest in the Hub that's about finding out what happened to the missing caravans.

The Transcendent One isn't hunting TNO, he's trying to keep TNO away from him as far possible (because he knows their shared link can allow TNO to destroy him), primarily by making him forget. He sends shadows after TNO for that purpose (which start to spawn in Sigil after a certain point in the game), destroys the skulls in the Pillar of Skulls that know his identity and does all sorts of things to prevent TNO from ever catching up to him. There are clues all throughout the game that point to the Transcendent One's activity.

Both of these are executed much better than the villains of the BG games.

RE: PST. The shadows make it seem that he's hunting the player for the first bigger part of the game. You don't really get to know all that you wrote before he says so himself in the end.

RE: FO. What I mean by The Master being an encounter at the end is that there's big reveal at the end; "you're the master?! a computer blob?!"
Fallout is fantastic and has a great story but the Master isn't particularly strong as a game villain.

In hindsight, after finishing the games, they both carry rich and fantastic stories. But that doesn't matter because what does matter is what the player feels while playing. Irenicus is very personal from the get-go. Sarevok less so, but he's not really at Irenicus level anyway. Regardless, both are very good villains.

EDIT: I know that I argued that one of the strengths of BG villains is that they both reveal their plans near the end, and use the same to discredit PST/FO. The difference is that the BG villains have a much more tangible (but still somewhat mysterious) presence before that.

 

[Athelas]

stuff

Well, this is quite different from your initial argument, which was that the BG villains were active in the world and the Fallout/PST villains weren't. When I pointed out this wasn't true, now you seem to place the focus on the fact that in the BG games the villain was revealed at the beginning of the game. Which I suppose is true, but I don't see how that holds any weight - plenty of stories don't let the protagonist and antagonist come face to face until much later in the plot.

EDIT: I know that I argued that one of the strengths of BG villains is that they both reveal their plans near the end, and use the same to discredit PST/FO. The difference is that the BG villains have a much more tangible (but still somewhat mysterious) presence before that.

I don't see how this holds any weight. No villain is going to reveal their plan until the end, otherwise they'd be allowing you to thwart them.

RE: PST. The shadows make it seem that he's hunting the player for the first bigger part of the game. You don't really get to know all that you wrote before he says so himself in the end.

Nope, these are all things you find out while playing the game, i.e. when you ask the Pillar of Skulls who TNO's killer is. It's made clear that the shadows are non-intelligent and that someone is sending them after you. Furthermore, the Transcendent One first shows up in person in Ravel's maze, i.e. at the midway point of the game, not near the end.

But that doesn't matter because what does matter is what the player feels while playing. Irenicus is very personal from the get-go.

What I felt while playing BG 2: Athkatla is amazing! Let me do all these quests first. Imoen can wait. Irenicus who?

What I felt while playing PST: I can't wait to find out who's responsible for my immortality/amnesia - and why.

 

[hell bovine]

What I felt while playing BG 2: Athkatla is amazing! Let me do all these quests first. Imoen can wait. Irenicus who?

What I felt while playing PST: I can't wait to find out who's responsible for my immortality/amnesia - and why.

I have to agree Irenicus isn't really that interesting as a villain. I actually found him a bit annoying after the beginning. You catch up in Spellhold and then he runs away. So you catch up in the elven city, and he - sort of - runs away. And then you get to finally have your end battle. I am not a fun of such solutions. At least with Sarevok, when he runs away (seems a theme for BG), you just have to take a stroll through the maze to catch up.

 

[Rake]

stuff

Well, this is quite different from your initial argument, which was that the BG villains were active in the world and the Fallout/PST villains weren't. When I pointed out this wasn't true, now you seem to place the focus on the fact that in the BG games the villain was revealed at the beginning of the game. Which I suppose is true, but I don't see how that holds any weight - plenty of stories don't let the protagonist and antagonist come face to face until much later in the plot.

EDIT: I know that I argued that one of the strengths of BG villains is that they both reveal their plans near the end, and use the same to discredit PST/FO. The difference is that the BG villains have a much more tangible (but still somewhat mysterious) presence before that.

I don't see how this holds any weight. No villain is going to reveal their plan until the end, otherwise they'd be allowing you to thwart them.

RE: PST. The shadows make it seem that he's hunting the player for the first bigger part of the game. You don't really get to know all that you wrote before he says so himself in the end.

Nope, these are all things you find out while playing the game, i.e. when you ask the Pillar of Skulls who TNO's killer is. It's made clear that the shadows are non-intelligent and that someone is sending them after you. Furthermore, the Transcendent One first shows up in person in Ravel's maze, i.e. at the midway point of the game, not near the end.

But that doesn't matter because what does matter is what the player feels while playing. Irenicus is very personal from the get-go.

What I felt while playing BG 2: Athkatla is amazing! Let me do all these quests first. Imoen can wait. Irenicus who?

What I felt while playing PST: I can't wait to find out who's responsible for my immortality/amnesia - and why.

While i agree about the feelings you had while playing the games, i disagree about the villains. I was very interested in NO story, the immortality deal and all that, but i never got the feeling that TTO was responsible. The various characters from NO past plus the various reincarnations AND Ravel were far more interesting.
As far as personality, motivations and more importantly, making the player feel something about them goes both TTO and even more so the Master felt flat to me.
The Master's in game presence was the mutant armies coming from nowhere. You could piece together his backstory, but his in game presence was on par with NWN2's King of Shadows. Irenicus (not Sarevok) was a better villain than both of them. (by no means a great one thought)

 

[Tigranes]

Irenicus is super cool, but 90% of that cool comes from the (for once) stellar voice acting. Also, from not looking at his Fabulous concept art.

To me Sarevok and Irenicus are basically the same - most of the game you don't get to encounter him properly, you only get these demonstrations of how badass he is. Sarevok starts the game by throwing the other dude off the building then killing Gorion, then has everyone else trembling in his wake. Irenicus starts the game by beating the shit out of you and some thieves, then beats the shit out of the mages, then beats the shit out of the elves. I can approve of that. His sobby I WAS AN ELF backstory was also delivered without overdoing the melo-brouhaha as would happen in NWN1, KOTOR, and every subsequent Biogame.

 

[Infinitron]

Also, from not looking at his Fabulous concept art.

The original Muscle Wizard(tm)

 

[Zed]

Which I suppose is true, but I don't see how that holds any weight - plenty of stories don't let the protagonist and antagonist come face to face until much later in the plot.

True. But in BG you do, and the games and their villains are better for it.

What I felt while playing BG 2: Athkatla is amazing! Let me do all these quests first. Imoen can wait. Irenicus who?

What I felt while playing PST: I can't wait to find out who's responsible for my immortality/amnesia - and why.

Sounds like linearity is your cup of tea.

stuff

If you're gonna multi-quote you might as well quote the text you are referring to.

 

[Athelas]

Sounds like linearity is your cup of tea.

I'm not sure how you got that from my post when I was praising all the content in Athkatla and thought Fallout, an open-world game, did a better job with its villain. I was replying to your comment about 'what does matter is what the player feels while playing'. What I was feeling while playing BG2 was that everything else in the game was more interesting than the villain.

If you're gonna multi-quote you might as well quote the text you are referring to.

In this case it was the entire post and I didn't want to create needlessly big posts.

 

[Zed]

Sounds like linearity is your cup of tea.

I'm not sure how you got that from my post when I was praising all the content in Athkatla and thought Fallout, an open-world game, did a better job with its villain. I was replying to your comment about 'what does matter is what the player feels while playing'. What I was feeling while playing BG2 was that everything else in the game was more interesting than the villain.

I got the impression that the side-content distracted you from the main plot and Irenicus, and I'm suggesting that perhaps TSO is more to your liking because whichever way you play PST, the game will always follow up on the mystery (because it's super-linear). BG2 on the other hand will not progress unless you actually continue the main quest.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Ultimately you're comparing something that is uneven between these games. Few will disagree that BG2 shines on this front.

When we're talking character comparisons (e.g. Sarevok v Irenicus), we're talking writing. I don't understand complaints about Jon Irenicus as a villain when compared to Sarevok. In terms of characterization, style, exposition method and interaction, the former is just a far more fleshed out and better realized villain.

Obviously, I'm not throwing BG1 as a whole under the bus.

As Infinitron said, Irenicus is thrown in your face in the prologue in all of his power and "evilness", it's all underlined and emphasized to the max. Then you spend dozens of hours doing other stuff, only glimpsing him few times through the dreams before you encounter him in the Spellhold, after which it's a race. With Sarevok, sure you see him in the intro, but even when he kills Gorion, he's portrayed pretty low-key. Then you spend dozens of hours uncovering the double-layered plot, first it seems Iron Throne is behind all the problems and Sarevok is just their top henchman, before the reveal that he has manipulated Iron Throne as well.

I think it's the same sort of difference in preference as with the towns and wilderness areas between BG1 and BG2. Some people whine about emptiness and of only having 1 or 2 memorable encounters in BG1, while others complain that BG2 has just quest-hubs and cramped areas where you encounter quests every five feet.

 

[Lilura]

You dream about Sarevok in BG1.. he just isn't named. Just like in the cutscene, he's the Armored Figure.

Sarevok builds up as the villain, over time, and that's what makes him superior to Irenicus in the presentation.

Irenicus is actually also a decent villain, but I don't think many understand him. Those who dislike him call him "emo"; those who like him do so for the expert voice acting..

 

[Lone Wolf]

You're free to hold your own beliefs. A lot of what we're discussing, as one poster said, is theater of the mind stuff. I'll respond to a few things:

As Infinitron said, Irenicus is thrown in your face in the prologue in all of his power and "evilness", Rich Homie Cloaked's all underlined and emphasized to the max

In point of fact, ambiguities abound with Irenicus. At no point does he treat you as a threat or an enemy in the tutorial area. You're an item, of sorts, and he's figuring out your functions and parameters. Certainly cold and calculating (the dialogue bears that out), but not some chaotic evil buffon just out to main and murder. There's clearly method and purpose to his madness, and the game makes you want to find out what that is by upping the ante (rescuing Imoen/personal vengeance). The reason why this is pertinent is because his motivations are - at that stage - totally unclear. The whole dungeon abounds with strangeness. From the creatures in the stasis tanks, to his personal chambers and the nymphs, there's a lot of mud in the water. You don't even begin to understand Irenicus until well after Chapter 2. His display of power establishes his pedigree and, in terms of drama, does it far better than Sarevok's murder of Gorion. Especially because the latter brings his three minions along as cannon fodder. The writers show Irenicus to be an incredibly powerful mage; supremely confident in his own ability and arrogant to the point of foolhardiness. They do it in a few short lines, relying on David Warner's presence and the fireworks on display.

Sarevok swings his sword a few times and says nothing of import... He's a suit of armor with a deep voice.

Then you spend dozens of hours uncovering the double-layered plot, first Rich Homie Cloaked seems Iron Throne is behind all the problems and Sarevok is just their top henchman, before the reveal that he has manipulated Iron Throne as well.

Well, you can't simultaneously say (not meaning you, specifically) that Irenicus is out of sight and out of mind for hours and hours as a criticism, and then say the above about Sarevok. The fact is, you can go those dozens and dozens of hours totally unaware of Sarevok on any immediate level. He becomes an issue in, like, the last two chapters (from memory).

If you do a side by side comparison of how much integration the two villains have into their respective game areas, BG2 blows BG1 out of the water. Irenicus is woven in and out of the narrative seamlessly. You're encountering his minions, his sister, his left overs etc. throughout the game. Sarevok's minions are around, but they never feel connected to Sarevok, nor are you given a reason to feel that connection.

In terms of the writing, this is a total non-contest. To me, Irenicus is one of the greatest video gaming villains ever. You guys certainly don't have to agree with me.

those who like him do so for the expert voice acting..

VA is part of it, but the real reason is that you can actually see decent writers honing their craft in BG2. Sarevok and BG1 was Baby's First Heroic Journey.