Vapourware Best Chance to Make 2D Party-based RPG?

[Crichton]

I've always been interested in the idea of making an RPG but since I'm not interested in quitting my day-job, I've always assumed that I'd be limited to making mods within defined engines (NWN2, Shadowrun, D:OS if they ever get their act together, etc). But with the constant improvement in what tools are out there, I can almost see an opportunity to make something with my own rules/setting.

The biggest constraint I have is that I'm a mediocre artist and anything beyond simple 2D art is probably way outside of my range. But with current resurgence of 2D games, things are becoming somewhat friendlier in that regard. From a design standpoint, I have a pretty good idea what I want (think Dark Sun: Shattered Lands set in Leigh Brackett's 'Sea Kings of Mars') but I'm unsure about what the best path forward is.

Option 1) RPG Maker



With some of the scripting extensions available, like the one allowing for tactical movement pictured above, it can do everything I want, but it's clearly a stretch of what the designers of RPG Maker intended.

Option 2) Iceblink Toolset



Iceblink is specifically designed to do what I want which should make things easier. But at a glance it's ~25% finished (at best). It could be a long time before it's actually ready for the field and who knows if it'll actually get there?

Option 3) (Kingcomrade) GameMaker



Of course the nuclear option is to simply build my own engine. After all, I'll have to build large parts of the combat engine anyway. But as I mentioned above, this is strictly a hobbyist project; I'd much rather take someone else's code-base and graft on my art/rules.

With all that in mind, is there a better option out there that I'm missing? Failing that, which of three makes the most sense?

 

[Davaris]

With all that in mind, is there a better option out there that I'm missing?

Make a pen and paper RPG and sell it on RPGNow.

 

[Mastermind]

I'd use gamemaker for the flexibility. You'd still have to do a lot of coding but I think it's worth it.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

I would recommend writing your own "engine". This sounds very complex - but it's actually not. It can be as complex as you want it to be. In fact fairly simple.
Especially for a 2D game i would just go with sprites/icon drawing (so even no animations to make things even more simple).

I actually tried coding a 2D top-down DnD game (like gold box). And it is fairly simple to set up a basic window to draw a "map" (just some sprites drawn) and "actors" (sprites of various dudes). That's it, now just code you combat, movement modules. It took me a couple of days of actual programming (but before starting i thought about design and researched the tech for quite a while, whenever i got free time to do it). I gave up coding the rules - not the "engine" - due to lack of will.

If you go for the simple design - you'll notice that you don't need most of the other engine features. And if you code it yourself, you are free to do whatever you want and not restricted to what "RPG maker" allows. You can get okaish free sprites on the internet.

 

[Dorateen]

Option 2) Iceblink Toolset

Iceblink is specifically designed to do what I want which should make things easier. But at a glance it's ~25% finished (at best). It could be a long time before it's actually ready for the field and who knows if it'll actually get there?

I'm wondering why you think the IceBlink engine is only 25% finished? It is certainly a work in progress and new features are being planned and implemented, actively being worked on. The current state of the engine would allow a builder to make a complete game. Especially the kind of 2D party-based RPG you are interested in. There are several adventures available that are quite playable. You mentioned your evaluation is only "at a glance". I would reconsider looking further and see if it is at a build state you are satisfied with.

Aside from IceBlink, I would also suggest the quickly advancing Dungeon Craft. That engine may have a bit further to go, but it is stable enough and flexible enough to provide tools to build something enjoyable.

 

[Crichton]

Option 2) Iceblink Toolset

Iceblink is specifically designed to do what I want which should make things easier. But at a glance it's ~25% finished (at best). It could be a long time before it's actually ready for the field and who knows if it'll actually get there?

I'm wondering why you think the IceBlink engine is only 25% finished? It is certainly a work in progress and new features are being planned and implemented, actively being worked on. The current state of the engine would allow a builder to make a complete game. Especially the kind of 2D party-based RPG you are interested in. There are several adventures available that are quite playable. You mentioned your evaluation is only "at a glance". I would reconsider looking further and see if it is at a build state you are satisfied with.

Aside from IceBlink, I would also suggest the quickly advancing Dungeon Craft. That engine may have a bit further to go, but it is stable enough and flexible enough to provide tools to build something enjoyable.

I guess to be fair, calculating a completion percentage requires a set endpoint. On a feature-by-feature basis, the "GTBS" scriptset for RPGmaker Ace has a lot of things that built-in that Iceblink doesn't (ability-use AI, elevation, cooldowns, mana/energy, etc). I'm also a little dubious of the current state of the graphics engine; the only sprites I've seen are the two-state GoldBox ones which precludes a easy display of "knocked down" or "wounded" states. The Iceblink people still seem to be developing their ruleset but that bothers me less since I have my own systems in mind; it's not clear how much I'll be able to adapt in any case. RPGmaker also seems more flexible because people have done more different things with it but age may be a factor; Iceblink may develop a pool of module-makers in time.

Just for the hell of it, I may spend a little time trying to put something together in RPGmaker and in Iceblink and see if I make any progress in either one. If I feel too straightjacketed, there's always the nuclear option...

 

[Twiglard]

I agree with jagged-jimmy here. Representing movement on a grid is just that -- a grid with units/items taking (x,y) positions. For drawing that you mention in Iceblink -- it's just that, drawing an image (animation frame) at given position.

Don't write engines, write games. For 2D space in 2D games, no advanced knowledge of space representation, collision detection or pathfinding are necessary. The technical framework before having it display on screen and do stuff you want is minimal.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Haha I'm kind of in same boat, sorta. I was on Windows, using MSVC 2010 Express and Allegro 5. I switched to Ubuntu/Kubuntu and now I just don't feel like figuring how to get Allegro going again. So lately I been making a console program in Codeblocks for fun. It's easy to setup. Just go to Software Center and instal Codeblocks with the the addons selected. It'll automatically use the GCC GNU compiler. It's a snap to make a console app. However, it's not what I'd really want. What I'd really want for these console apps is more control over the output and for it to be completely standlone and executable by just clicking on it.

In Allegro I made a modular GUI system to handle windows and controls. Last time I was working on the GUI, I finished up allowing for controls to have child events. As yet, it doesn't allow for multiple nested child events.

Making a very simple tiled map which you can scroll is very easy to do. I've done that. But going from that to a game is a big leap. If you set your ambitions low, you can probably cut a lot of time out of it. Last time I was doing this, I got side tracked on attempting to make a real-time perlin noise landscape maker. I was working on making the algoirthm faster and planning to combine high frequency perlin wiht lower frequency perlin - to simulate terrain type - when I stopped. This is a very typical thing with me. I get sidetracked by something, dig too deeply, grow bored and stop working on what I was doing.

Those're the only real things I've done: Gui, some perlin noise work. That's it. I don't know how to make a game, I just have fuzzy ideas. Things which intimidate me are timing and 3d or animation stuff.

 

[Dorateen]

I guess to be fair, calculating a completion percentage requires a set endpoint. On a feature-by-feature basis, the "GTBS" scriptset for RPGmaker Ace has a lot of things that built-in that Iceblink doesn't (ability-use AI, elevation, cooldowns, mana/energy, etc). I'm also a little dubious of the current state of the graphics engine; the only sprites I've seen are the two-state GoldBox ones which precludes a easy display of "knocked down" or "wounded" states. The Iceblink people still seem to be developing their ruleset but that bothers me less since I have my own systems in mind; it's not clear how much I'll be able to adapt in any case. RPGmaker also seems more flexible because people have done more different things with it but age may be a factor; Iceblink may develop a pool of module-makers in time.

Just for the hell of it, I may spend a little time trying to put something together in RPGmaker and in Iceblink and see if I make any progress in either one. If I feel too straightjacketed, there's always the nuclear option...

True enough regarding the built-in features of the engine. I do think with the scripting language used, some modifications could be made to achieve what you are aiming for. On the technical aspect, slowdive can speak better than I. But for example, the default magic system is mana/spell point based. I would think a cooldown-like regeneration system could be programmed using a heartbeat script. The art is very much up to the author, and playing with the frames already allows some limited animation. There is also sprite swapping through scripting, so displaying an incapacitated character or enemy should be feasible. It's very much a community orientated effort, a lot of features added in so far were done so as requests.

That sounds like a good plan to try out a couple of engines/toolsets and if necessary go with a custom option should your ambitions require it.

Good luck, because a Dark Sun inspired project sounds great.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

I have my own systems in mind; it's not clear how much I'll be able to adapt in any case.

I would say it won't be possible. You will either cut your features to fit them in IceBlink and RPGMaker or you will have to half-ass cram you ideas with what possibilities those developers give you. Also not saying that they won't "change" something in the future screwing your "scripts" over.

It depends on what you want to do - but why not try to prototype your idea in a very basic way in some programming language you're familiar with? It will either make you confident, that you can do it... or

Spoiler

you'll have some fun doing the vapourware prototype and then go back to playing games instead

 

[slowdive]

But as I mentioned above, this is strictly a hobbyist project; I'd much rather take someone else's code-base and graft on my art/rules.

IceBlink can be used as is or with heavy scripting options as well (Red Carnival is a good example module that re-wrote much of the combat system using the available script hooks and custom scripts). The scripting language is C#. Also, since it is open source and on GitHub, you could fork it and customize it to your hearts content. Or you could just start from scratch as suggested. I made IB in my spare time as my full time job and family come first so it is possible to make 2D stuff as a hobby (also, I'm a self taught coder so my stuff is ugly, not optimized and marginal at best...but I get stuff done). Also, IceBlink has a PC version and an Android version as well.

 

[Twiglard]

Making a very simple tiled map which you can scroll is very easy to do. I've done that. But going from that to a game is a big leap. If you set your ambitions low, you can probably cut a lot of time out of it. Last time I was doing this, I got side tracked on attempting to make a real-time perlin noise landscape maker. I was working on making the algoirthm faster and planning to combine high frequency perlin wiht lower frequency perlin - to simulate terrain type - when I stopped. This is a very typical thing with me. I get sidetracked by something, dig too deeply, grow bored and stop working on what I was doing.

When treating game-making programming session as exploration of the problem domain, it's actually good you did that - new stuff you know that's on the topic you were researching. Given you were likely not familiar with all the stuff to do for a game, it's all for the best, and you'd likely have many such side-activities before completing the game. Getting knowledge the hard way, as there isn't any other.

If you haven't read that, this guy's writings are worth reading:

http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~amitp/game-programming/polygon-map-generation/
http://www.redblobgames.com/articles/noise/introduction.html (this one I haven't read yet)

The sod also wrote hex grid stuff on the same site that has decent amount of rigor. With this plug I recommend you guys check out his series of articles, as they're worth reading. Rare thing in today's world.

 

[tuluse]

I spend some time with rpgmaker for the codex 1 week contest. In short, it's shit. Unless you want to make a final fantasy style jRPG, it's an immense amount of work to do anything else.

Now, a lot of people have done parts of that work and you can download it (like the tactics mod), but you are really stretching what this engine is designed for.

If you want tactical battles, Iceblink would suit your needs out of the box much better.

If you want something rougher around the edges, but even more flexible, there is FIFE and FIFErpg, (https://github.com/fifengine, http://fife-rpg.github.io/) that will give you an isometric engine that you can build the rules you want on top of.

Those would be my suggestions based on how much low level work you want to put in.

 

[MRY]

Before you even begin, I think you should contemplate how huge an undertaking you're talking about. I say this as someone who spent almost a decade (13 to 21) trying to make an RPG, and never getting it done. Here are the credits to Dark Sun: http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/dark-sun-shattered-lands/credits. Most if not all of those people had considerable experience from the outset, and they were working within an environment where they had the support of one of the most veteran game development companies of the time. It is not particularly plausible that you'll be able to make a game like that, no matter what kind of savant you are. No one is willing to believe this, of course, until after they've walked in the wilderness themselves for forty years. It's not wasted effort, but it's not likely to result in a game.

I think you should start by figuring what exactly it is that you want to make -- in other words, why do you want to make this RPG. To tell a story? To set up certain kinds of encounters? To have fans cheer you on? Etc. Maybe there is a more efficient way to do it than trying to make an RPG.

But, if you're set on doing it, I actually think your best bet might be Blades of Avernum. That will give you assets and an engine designed for making more or less the kind of game you want to make. It seems to have a strong community. I've never used it, but I did play the Avernum games and they're reasonably good. Assuming the engine has some flexibility, it seems like a decent bet. You get the pre-made art and ease of use of RPGMaker without having to fight the systems the whole time.

[EDIT: If you are going to use RPG Maker, it's 80% off on Steam for next few hours.]

 

[belowmecoldhands]

MRY, you make good point. I think a lot of us float around for years dreaming of that game, almost like a dream woman, but what happens doesn't satisfy the dream. I know in my case, I've tried so many times to make a game and then lost interest that I lost count. It's made me jaded, but I also have tons of respect for people who have made them.

And then there's one game I did finish, but it wasn't a computer game. It was a board game I made for a class assignment over the weekend. This was in grade school. Sure, it wasn't Monopoly or Chess or Scrabble, but it was my first foray into making a game and also the first and only time I ever finished made a halfway playable game. This has always puzzled me, since I think about it now and then. How is it I fumbled together a game back then with just a couple days and with all my knowledge of programming and gaming I haven't even made a ping pong clone, and a modestly capable grade schooler could program that.

It has made me examine myself and my expectations. I think I'm the kind of person who, if I don't try to make a game which I'll definably finish within a month at most then I'll lose interest and beat myself up over it months/years later. Evenso, I've made some things worth keeping and programming, like any hobby, is something I enjoy on a fundamental level.

If someone else can relate, maybe tha'ts what you should do. Make a small game over the weekend. At least try.

All told, I give my best wishes to the OP.

 

[J1M]

Realistically, you will not complete this project on your first attempt. Pick the engine that will allow you to learn the most about doing the project in a better way the second time you attempt it.

 

[adrix89]

The main advantage to RPG Maker is nothing other then assets.
If you have the ability to get tilesets, sprites, sounds, music you are probably better off with something else.
If the RPG you want to make is in line with the default jRPG system the better as you already have a base to start.
Also don't underestimate how GUIs can be a bitch if you start from scratch. In my project this is one of the pain I have to solve and is pretty hard.
I don't think the art from Blades of Avernum is really sellable.
People are more used to RPG Maker games in that regard.
For free assets there is Open Game Art LPC or Flare.
But for LPC you have to stomach a CC-BY-SA license that has some issues, Flare is CC-BY which is great outside of DRM platforms.

 

[Slow James]

I would ask what you intend to do? What's your game like?

What type of dialogue do you want? Branching narrative? Roleplaying options? Character creator?

What kind of combat? Turn based? ATB? RTwP?

Non-combat skills? Stealth? Traps? Puzzles?


The more complex your system, the more it pays to start the engine on your own (ironically enough). The more "in the box" it is, with just you wanting to tell a certain story, the more it pays to use a system like RPGMaker.

 

[crufty]

I am liking Haxima a lot. That dude is a smart cookie.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Unity (haters gonna hate, lol).

 

[adrix89]

Unity (haters gonna hate, lol).

Unity can be good if you are willing to spend some cash to get you started.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

Unity (haters gonna hate, lol).

Unity can be good if you are willing to spend some cash to get you started.

Depends on what you're going to waste your cash on. Some of the stuff offered by Pro license can be imitated or programmed by yourself, and Asset Store is unnecessary unless you can't do shit by yourself or don't have time.

The only thing I'm interested in a Pro license is a profiler functionality, since I am trying to force my game to run nice on older hardware. But since I don't have the Pro license, I simply run the game each time I do any changes in the scene to see how it runs now.