Non-combat magic

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Magic mapping.

 

[Slow James]

Part of the problem with non combat magic is that it makes creating obstacles without giant glaring plotholes rather difficult. It's already bad enough when you need to surrender to the guards you could kill, find the keys to a door you can break, and pass through a checkpoint because your character can't navigate a 1 foot ditch on the side of the road. Throw in things like invisibility, levitation, and so forth, and it becomes trivially easy to circumvent almost any challenge. Wizards aren't top tier in DnD just because they can kill shit. They can also replicate all the skills the ranger, thief and bard have and then some.

Consider how many quests in an elder scrolls game you ought to be able to trivialize with a charm person spell (or how stupid a game like Diablo is when you can teleport through an entire floor in about 5 seconds).

Of course, in a game built around wizards you could compensate for this sort of thing, but most games features wizards alongside the plebian warriors and rogues, and non combat magic would just make them terribly useless.

This could be remedied by having the player party be woefully underpowered to the threats they face.

If you party is all a bunch of level 4 characters and there are 20 level 6 town guards and 2 level 9 lieutenants, then suddenly stealing the Quest Item of Massive Importance from under their noses requires every skill the party has, including rogues sneaking, fighters smooth talking, wizards being conjurers of cheap tricks and pretty much encouraging ingenuity instead of trying to bend over backwards to figure out why the party shouldn't just slaughter everyone in their way in a fraction of the time.

Quest for Glory was mentioned in the other Mage thread and I think it does this really well. The player can fight monsters and overcome obstacles, but when it comes to things like getting caught by the town guards or facing Big Bads, your character is realistically hopeless when that outnumbered or outgunned. For the Wizard character, you need to use your spells in non-conventional manners to take down threats much bigger than the player.


For instance, in the third game, the Wizard is trying to bring peace between two tribes. One of the tribes is a group of magic users who is hostile to the hero, and upon reaching their camp and making the case for peace, the shaman of the tribe challenges the Wizard to a magic duel to judge if he is worthy of being heard. The duel involves each wizard taking a turn to defeat the other wizard.

The duel starts with you both summoning your magic staffs, at which time the shaman gets to go first, since everyone can detect his power is much greater than yours. He then proceeds to summon creatures, attacks and perils to kill the hero. These can be overcome by using peaceful, utility spells, such as using the Dazzle spell (a blinding light spell usually reserved for stunning an enemy) to dispel a shadow snake, or casting Calm (a spell which calms down enemies and environments alike) to put out a fiery ring the shaman has summoned around the player.


Yes, this is more adventure game than RPG, but the concept remains - noncombat shouldn't just be a clever way to avoid much easier combat. One must be genuinely afraid (or even unable) to fight your way out of situations for non-combat solutions to be viable. Which isn't at all unrealistic - a small party should be able to handle a band of enemies, but should never be capable of wiping an entire town out. Similarly, a Wizard should need to have a wide bag of tricks up their sleeve that involve more options than just "fireball to the enemy's face twenty five times until dead."

 

[Slow James]

Lol dude you can't avoid combat in RPGs

Oh, but your wrong. There already are a few RPGs where completely or nearly combatless playthroughs are possible. In Quest for Glory series, for example, if you're playing a mage or thief 80% to 100% of your challenges are non-combat.
I even have a sorta design doc somewhere of a dugeon crawl, built completely around auxiliary mechanics like traps, stealth, survival and some very limited magic. It's some pity it's never going to be made into actual game.

Traps, huh? Sounds like violence to me.

Violence =/= combat

Torture is very violent. Yet no one in their right mind would call that a fight.

 

[Damned Registrations]

The thing is, it doesn't matter how strong wizards are compared to the challenges, what matters is how strong they are compared to other options. If a wizard can beguile people, sneak around, and smash doors nearly as well as a charismatic leader, a rogue and a barbarian, why have those characters at all instead of just a pile of wizards? OTOH, if the wizard does those things so much less effectively you really do need the other classes, what purpose do those spells serve? Nobody needs an invisibility spell that doesn't work. You can justify having a wizard in the party by having him fill roles other classes can't (like say, identifying magical items or something) but there's no way to justify having spells that duplicate the skills of other (potential) party members AND those party members. One or the other is going to be better.

Reminds me of all the hybrid casters in EQ back in the day being completely unwanted because their buffs didn't stack with those of their pure caster counterparts and their fighting skills were subpar as well, so they had no role to fill. Not much different from 2nd edition DnD in that regard (back when paladins didn't get cool bonus abilities and rangers had really shitty rogue skills.)

 

[Mangoose]

Lol dude you can't avoid combat in RPGs

Oh, but your wrong. There already are a few RPGs where completely or nearly combatless playthroughs are possible. In Quest for Glory series, for example, if you're playing a mage or thief 80% to 100% of your challenges are non-combat.
I even have a sorta design doc somewhere of a dugeon crawl, built completely around auxiliary mechanics like traps, stealth, survival and some very limited magic. It's some pity it's never going to be made into actual game.

Traps, huh? Sounds like violence to me.

Violence =/= combat

Torture is very violent. Yet no one in their right mind would call that a fight.

Of course it is, it's just very one sided.

 

[TigerKnee]

Awaken: This could be used to wake up sleeping NPCs.

I love how there's a spell for doing this.

Most people I know just use the method of shouting really loud.

 

[Norfleet]

I love how there's a spell for doing this.

Most people I know just use the method of shouting really loud.

Well, it's there for realism. In real life, you cast this spell by grasping and shaking the target while incanting the magic words, "OI, YOU, WAKE UP!".

 

[Darkion]

Awaken: This could be used to wake up sleeping NPCs.

I love how there's a spell for doing this.

Most people I know just use the method of shouting really loud.

Well, yes, but... in some games you needed an Awaken spell to rouse people under the influence of a Sleep spell.

 

[Alex]

I think it might be worthwhile to post here examples of interesting magic and magic systems. Sorry if this veers slightly off topic, but I think interesting uses of combat magic might be worthwhile to study as well.

Ultima 7 (The Black Gate and Serpent Island)​

Both Ultima 7 games had very similar magic systems. In these games, you acquired a spellbook (by the way, browsing the spellbook like an actual book instead of simply a list of spells added to the game's mood, see below) and then you needed to seek mages who could teach you the spells (usually for gold). Serpent Island also added the possibility to learn from scrolls, which meant you could find spells in dungeons or the like. Once you learned a spell, you also needed the right reagents in order to use magic. Another interesting detail, if only aesthetic, is that each reagent had a specific role in the spell such as garlic providing protection and black pearls being necessary for spells to be "hurled". Each spell also had magic words associated to it, with each word having a specific meaning. However, this aspect was completely non-interactive.

Ultima 7 has a good selection of non-combat spells, but truth is that most of these are useless:

Awaken: This could be used to wake up sleeping NPCs.
Ignite, Douse: These spells, and their greater version, could be used to ignite candles in game. Not really useful anywhere, though.
Glimmer, Light and Greate Light: These spells provide light. Their reagents cost more than a torch, though (well glimmer doesn't have reagents, but its duration is pretty short).
Columna's Intuiton: This spell makes the NPCs cast light. Not very useful at all, but interesting as a setting element.
Weather, Thunder and Fire Works: These spells are purely cosmetic. Weather (which basically made it rain) had some actual potential if it interacted with the NPCs schedules, but since it didn't...
Create Food: This spell was actually interesting, though it usually was a better idea to hunt for food and spare the reagents. It created a unit of food for each NPC in the party.
Detect Trap and Disarm Trap: These spells were a bit useless since it was usually easier to just break open trapped chests. And trapped chests are the only traps in Ultima 7...
Locate, Peer: Locate told your current longitude and latitude. Sometimes useful if you got lost (possibly after stepping into a red gate). Peer showed your actual position on the map.
Telekinesis: This spell had some real potential, but it is actually useful only in very few situations. Allows you to manipulate levers from afar.
Fetch: This spell allows you to teleport items to just near your feet. Useful in a few situations, but only very rarely.
Wizard Eye: Allowed you to see your surroundings. It was only really useful if you got lost exploring, or if you wanted to see some place you couldn't reach from your position.
Sleep, Mass Sleep: These spells are surprisingly useful for stealing from someone.
Conjure, Summon: These spells could be used to provide you with animals or monsters for looting. That isn't a very good tactic at first, but eventually you won't need reagents. And those dragons usually had quite a few gems!
Mark, Recall, Help: Teleportation spells. Help always teleported you to Lord British's castle. Recall teleported you to a previously marked area. So these spells weren't really of any use for exploration, but they avoided some leg work.
Blink: This spell could have allowed you to explore new places in another game. In Ultima 7, however, it doesn't work anymore. Although the spell not working being explained in-game is kinda cool.
Reveal: Can be used to find invisible things. There is at least one invisible chest in the game, though finding it seems to be pure luck (that is, there is no hint that there might be a chest in that place). Invisibility puzzles can be fun, but they need to consist of more than simply spamming Reveal every 20 steps.
Dispell Illusion: Although not the same thing as reveal, Dispell is very similar in usage. This spell could have been much better used if the game had better dungeons, or at least more NPCs willing to use illusions.
Séance: This spell allows you to talk to the dead in Skara Brae. It is a nice concept, but its use is very story centered. Would be nice if you could talk to some dead NPCs.
Summon Shade: Serpent's Island version of Séance. Again, it only works for a few plot specific characters.
Dance: Well, outside of combat this spell is really just cosmetic. But it could have had some interesting uses (creating a distraction, making an enemy dance in dangerous terrain, etc).
Dispel Field, Unlock Magic, Chill: Dispel destroys a magical field (a human sized square made of either fire, poison or pure force). Unlock allows you to open magically locked doors. Chill allows you into very hot places. All spells are necessary for exploring some places. These spells are a bit underwhelming (chill a bit less so), in that they seem to simply open up a few locked sections of the game. In a way, they work just like a key. I mean, I suppose this kind of spell always does, but you don't really feel like these spells open up new opportunities. I think that if they opened new venues for you, like maybe if you cast unlock magic on a mirror, it allowed you to enter the mirror into a distorted version of the world, the spell would be much more interesting. Or if the game had more magic doors and more interesting dungeons, so that exploring them was more fun.
Charm: This spell is useless outside combat, but it could just as well have been used in NPC interactions.
Cause Fear: Has the same effect of a used diaper.
Tremor: This spell will, for a short while, shake the earth. While the party will move slowly, enemies will keep falling down. This is pretty useless outside of combat, and not all that useful there. But it could have been incredibly powerful if the game could handle things such as cave ins or falling debris.
Create Gold: This spell transmutes lead nuggets into gold ones. Unfortunately, the reagents cost as much or more than what you can sell the nugget for. This spell can still be useful if you find the reagents on the wilderness.
False Coin: The Serpent Island version of Create Gold. Whereas create gold has more interesting theoretical uses, this spell is actually useful.
Time Stop: This spell allows you to steal with impunity.
Ressurrect: This spell could be used on NPCs. So, you could kill them, steal their possessions, and bring them back.
Translation: Allows you to read the ophidic alphabet. While it isn't all that interesting by itself, there is a lot of lore in that alphabet all over the world, so it doesn't feel so much of a gimmick like, say, unlock magic.
Create Soul Prism: This spell creates a soul prism, an item needed to finish the game. This spell sounds pretty interesting, and soul prisms were important pieces of automatons, meaning they are an element of the game's world. But it is still a pity the only use for this spell is a plot related one.
Transcribe: Allows you to copy a magic scroll into your spellbook. Like many other Ultima 7 spells, the issue here is that this spell doesn't really seem to give an advantage, but simply like a necessary step. It sometimes can be used to avoid having to pay for a spell, but there aren't many spells that exist only as scrolls, and the ones that do are frequently plot related.
Create Automaton: Allows you to revive broken automantons, and make them serve you. Interesting, though not really very useful.
Vibrate: This spell disarmed the target. This could be useful for stealing the weapons from NPCs.
Serpent Bond: Turns you into a snake. This is used in a few areas to explore places to small for the avatar to enter normally. However, again, the situations where it is actually useful are too few.
Stop Storm: Stops the storm, which is a magical phenomenon in Serpent Island, which may kill you, or hurt you, or teleport you. Needed in certain instances. Not very useful otherwise.

All in all, Ultima 7's magic system manages to get your imagination going, but fails to deliver in several instances. Many of the spells are just aesthetic, like fireworks, or weather. Quite a few, like telekinesis, could have been useful if dungeon exploration was a bigger aspect of the game (and if the dungeons themselves were worth exploring). Frequently, the more exotic spells are only useful in a very specific instance of the plot, which makes them more of a mcguffin than a spell. Some of the spells could have been give more use if certain aspects of the game were systematized. For instance, if the game kept track of how well liked you are, the charm spell could have been very useful outside combat. In the end, many of the non combat spells in this game are as useful as baking bread. So they end up being more of a setting element than an actual ability.

Well, I wanted to tackle a few more games, but this took long enough. I will try to tackle Ultima 8 next, but I need to go to sleep now, so maybe tomorrow.

Edit: I posted an incomplete version earlier. Sorry about that, only realized it when I posted this one.

 

[V_K]

Lol dude you can't avoid combat in RPGs

Oh, but your wrong. There already are a few RPGs where completely or nearly combatless playthroughs are possible. In Quest for Glory series, for example, if you're playing a mage or thief 80% to 100% of your challenges are non-combat.
I even have a sorta design doc somewhere of a dugeon crawl, built completely around auxiliary mechanics like traps, stealth, survival and some very limited magic. It's some pity it's never going to be made into actual game.

Traps, huh? Sounds like violence to me.

Violence =/= combat

Torture is very violent. Yet no one in their right mind would call that a fight.

Of course it is, it's just very one sided.

Even if we accept that twisted logic, the point is to avoid a trap, not to engage it - thus, no combat for a good player at least.

 

[Mangoose]

Lol dude you can't avoid combat in RPGs

Oh, but your wrong. There already are a few RPGs where completely or nearly combatless playthroughs are possible. In Quest for Glory series, for example, if you're playing a mage or thief 80% to 100% of your challenges are non-combat.
I even have a sorta design doc somewhere of a dugeon crawl, built completely around auxiliary mechanics like traps, stealth, survival and some very limited magic. It's some pity it's never going to be made into actual game.

Traps, huh? Sounds like violence to me.

Violence =/= combat

Torture is very violent. Yet no one in their right mind would call that a fight.

Of course it is, it's just very one sided.

Even if we accept that twisted logic, the point is to avoid a trap, not to engage it - thus, no combat for a good player at least.

What if an enemy runs into the trap?

 

[V_K]

Lol dude you can't avoid combat in RPGs

Oh, but your wrong. There already are a few RPGs where completely or nearly combatless playthroughs are possible. In Quest for Glory series, for example, if you're playing a mage or thief 80% to 100% of your challenges are non-combat.
I even have a sorta design doc somewhere of a dugeon crawl, built completely around auxiliary mechanics like traps, stealth, survival and some very limited magic. It's some pity it's never going to be made into actual game.

Traps, huh? Sounds like violence to me.

Violence =/= combat

Torture is very violent. Yet no one in their right mind would call that a fight.

Of course it is, it's just very one sided.

Even if we accept that twisted logic, the point is to avoid a trap, not to engage it - thus, no combat for a good player at least.

What if an enemy runs into the trap?

Nothing. Enemies for such a design to be plausible should be immune to any kind of harm. They could be incorporeal (ghosts), extremely resilient (phlebotinum golems) or some kind of lovecraftian creatures (too powerful to handle) etc.

 

[Mangoose]

Lol dude you can't avoid combat in RPGs

Oh, but your wrong. There already are a few RPGs where completely or nearly combatless playthroughs are possible. In Quest for Glory series, for example, if you're playing a mage or thief 80% to 100% of your challenges are non-combat.
I even have a sorta design doc somewhere of a dugeon crawl, built completely around auxiliary mechanics like traps, stealth, survival and some very limited magic. It's some pity it's never going to be made into actual game.

Traps, huh? Sounds like violence to me.

Violence =/= combat

Torture is very violent. Yet no one in their right mind would call that a fight.

Of course it is, it's just very one sided.

Even if we accept that twisted logic, the point is to avoid a trap, not to engage it - thus, no combat for a good player at least.

What if an enemy runs into the trap?

Nothing. Enemies for such a design to be plausible should be immune to any kind of harm. They could be incorporeal (ghosts), extremely resilient (phlebotinum golems) or some kind of lovecraftian creatures (too powerful to handle) etc.

Sounds like enemies that would easily engage you in combat.

 

[V_K]

...
Sounds like enemies that would easily engage you in combat.

Nah, they'd just devour you in a matter of seconds.

 

[baturinsky]

It's yet again time to talk about how awesome A Dance with Rogues is. It really hit the right spot between different magic and non-magic ways of solving non-combat challenges. Part of it is courtesy of D&D3 system, but Valine made the module that just makes it work.

1. Lots and lots and lots of traps and locks.
2. Disarming and unlocking them gives tons of exp and traps can be collected to replant or sell.
3. Lots of OP enemies that are very hard to kill at your level, and they barely give exp or loot.
4. You don't have to kill most of enemies if you can sneak by them or steal their stuff.
5. Lots of powerful stuff to buy in shops any time you want. Scrolls, wands, magic clothes with bonuses to this and that, OP potions. And you can buy any of that from the beginning of game. For example, you can save up money for 9th level summon and use it to break through a hard encounter.
6. But you are (temporarily) stripped from some or all of your gear on a regular basis.
7. Sleeping places are limited. In some places, very limited. That limits relying on spells, prayers and once-per-day abilities.

So, many classes (and multiclasses) can work, but differently.

1. Pure rogue (with rogue prestiges, such as shadow dancer). Easy time with locks, traps, stealth and stealing. BRUTAL sneak attacks, that can be spammed. Unavoidable fights can be problematic, especially before you get Shadowdancer.
2. Wizard or Sorcerer. Good at fights, but burns through memorized spells fast and sleeping is not always available. So, often has to work with summons and long-time buffs. Spells to unlock and disarm traps. And invisibility. But, again, only so many per day and there is insane amount of locks and traps. And you don't get get to keep traps disarmed by spell. Also, casting breaks stealth and invisibility, unless you silence it. Most interesting option, though, is faerie summon, that has thief skills. Not on quite high level, though, it's not an adequate replacement of a rogue (of same level).
3. Fighter. That's one is problematic to play, but you can use gear to bypass some locks/traps, take some traps in the face, break doors and chests instead of opening them. Kill things and people instead of sneaking by. Not the best way to play ADWR, but can work. I think
4. Cleric. Tricky, but with great potential. You can get a domain that gives you a big boost to all thieving skills limited times per day. And lots of 1-level summons that can be used to die in traps. No fairy familiar, though.

Also, you can mix in rogue levels to others, to get thief skills cheap. Drawbacks: less skill points than pure rogue, less spellcaster levels and worse fairy than pure wiz/sorc/cleric. And no BRUTAL criticals. But between high skill levels, caster's buffs and maybe cleric's domain power, you can be even better lockpicker/disabler/sneaker than just a rogue.

Here is a http://adwr.wikia.com/wiki/Strategy_Guide for details

So, what is the moral of the story (for the game designers).

Give many ways to solve challenges, but each with own price and limitation. And give variable game challenges that enforces different sets of said limitations. Have some fall-back options (such as exensive potion, or just "retreat and come back later") so you can give more challenging challenges without fear of player being stuck completely.

 

[Mangoose]

...
Sounds like enemies that would easily engage you in combat.

Nah, they'd just devour you in a matter of seconds.

So I guess you can't avoid combat.

 

[V_K]

...
Sounds like enemies that would easily engage you in combat.

Nah, they'd just devour you in a matter of seconds.

So I guess you can't avoid combat.

Wrong again - you must avoid it as it's automatic gameover. Just like with the traps, only worse.

*this is my last post on the subject, derailing has gone far enough.

 

[Grimwulf]

Just need to get dat memory going.

1. Unreal World. ALL rituals and incantations are non-combat.
2. Daggerfall. Can't remember Morrowind too well (perhaps it qualifies even better in that regard), but spellmaker in Daggerfall lets you create a nearly infinite amount of different non-combat magic with up to 3 effects each. Want to be a russian submarine? Make a -underwater breathing, -fast swimming, -invisible spell.
3. Global spells of Dominions series. They are simply gorgeous, EVERY single one. There is a spell that makes every living being age 10 times faster. Another one creates a second sun. Yet another one bestows eternal darkness on the world. There are spells which
- make the demons torture every soldier in his sleep, making mentally unstable ones wake up and attempt to murder their own commander
- bestow a Ghost Ship curse upon the world, making it randomly apper at different coastal settlements and pillage-plunder, yar!
- Endless winter with dire wolves and other nasties (Teh Winter is Commin!)
I could go on forever with this one, but moving further.
4. The Guild 2. There is not much "spells" in the game, but more than enough magic, e.g. voodoo doll - not a spell, but definetely non-combat magic. Or magic perfume thingie ("cord of distortion" or smth like that) that makes two people of your choice dislike each other. You need to be a scholar in order to create that kind of stuff in Mage's Guild, Gypsy Camping and whatnot, but even if you buy all neccessary trinkets, you gotta have a high lvl of proper skill (Arcane Lore or smth).
5. Arcanum. Won't even start making examples, everybody played Arcanum. If not - go play it, faggots.

Also, I double votes on already mentioned Quest for Glory series and Ultima 7 and it's add-on.

Spoiler

Remembering stuff is hard

 

[Slow James]

Help! I am a complete fucking moran and can't figure out how to quote correctly!

 

[Slow James]

---GREAT LIST IS GREAT---

All in all, Ultima 7's magic system manages to get your imagination going, but fails to deliver in several instances. Many of the spells are just aesthetic, like fireworks, or weather. Quite a few, like telekinesis, could have been useful if dungeon exploration was a bigger aspect of the game (and if the dungeons themselves were worth exploring). Frequently, the more exotic spells are only useful in a very specific instance of the plot, which makes them more of a mcguffin than a spell. Some of the spells could have been give more use if certain aspects of the game were systematized. For instance, if the game kept track of how well liked you are, the charm spell could have been very useful outside combat. In the end, many of the non combat spells in this game are as useful as baking bread. So they end up being more of a setting element than an actual ability.

Well, I wanted to tackle a few more games, but this took long enough. I will try to tackle Ultima 8 next, but I need to go to sleep now, so maybe tomorrow.

Edit: I posted an incomplete version earlier. Sorry about that, only realized it when I posted this one.

Nice breakdown of the of U7/SI spell list. Two commentaries to make:

1) Reagants. As part of the AD&D system that Ultima closely followed, reagents being required for magic seemed like a great idea. However, it results in hording and being stingy with magic instead of feeling like you had it as a powerful tool. This was lampshaded with the Ring of Reagents in the Silver Seed, which removed the need for reagents and had magic only use mana. Ultima 8 had a crazy (kind of cool) approach, where there were three different magic systems to juggle, one using reagents to cast, one using reagents to create single-use totems and another using totems which had infinite uses without reagents. However, I think the best approach was in Ultima 9 (PERISH THE THOUGHT!), where reagents were required and used to first put a spell into your spellbook, after which they simply cost mana to cast. This more aligned with 1E DnD, where new spells could be researched or even created by the player, but could often cost very specific ingredients for the learning.

2) One thing to consider for the Ultima games is that it presupposes a magic-using main character. Much more could have been done to make the non-combat magic less plot required and more integral to the way the game was played inherently, but, at the same time, the fact that it existed at all likely could be traced to the concept that the Avatar is a uber warrior/mage/rogue type that can do pretty much anything with preter-natural skills.


Ultimately, both reagent and Vancian casting make non-combat casting difficult to implement. You either learn silly spells that might only apply once in a blue moon, or you burn valuable materials simply because you couldn't find a way to flip a switch across a canyon. I think a more balanced approach, where simple spells (such as most non-combat utility spells and low level combat ones) cost mana alone, while more powerful spells require the use of materials and/or can only be used sparingly. This would eliminate some of the risk/reward out of learnign and keeping handy more utilitarian spells and would simultaneously avoid spamming nuke spells in combat as the "go to" option.

 

[Mastermind]

The thing is, it doesn't matter how strong wizards are compared to the challenges, what matters is how strong they are compared to other options. If a wizard can beguile people, sneak around, and smash doors nearly as well as a charismatic leader, a rogue and a barbarian, why have those characters at all instead of just a pile of wizards? OTOH, if the wizard does those things so much less effectively you really do need the other classes, what purpose do those spells serve? Nobody needs an invisibility spell that doesn't work. You can justify having a wizard in the party by having him fill roles other classes can't (like say, identifying magical items or something) but there's no way to justify having spells that duplicate the skills of other (potential) party members AND those party members. One or the other is going to be better.

Reminds me of all the hybrid casters in EQ back in the day being completely unwanted because their buffs didn't stack with those of their pure caster counterparts and their fighting skills were subpar as well, so they had no role to fill. Not much different from 2nd edition DnD in that regard (back when paladins didn't get cool bonus abilities and rangers had really shitty rogue skills.)

With invisibility, a rogue can turn himself "invisible" but he can't do the same with the party. A wizard can. I used invisibility extensively in BG2. I also used stealth, since they served different purposes for different characters (and iirc you can't backstab out of invisibility).

 

[V_K]

1) Reagants. As part of the AD&D system that Ultima closely followed, reagents being required for magic seemed like a great idea. However, it results in hording and being stingy with magic instead of feeling like you had it as a powerful tool. This was lampshaded with the Ring of Reagents in the Silver Seed, which removed the need for reagents and had magic only use mana. Ultima 8 had a crazy (kind of cool) approach, where there were three different magic systems to juggle, one using reagents to cast, one using reagents to create single-use totems and another using totems which had infinite uses without reagents. However, I think the best approach was in Ultima 9 (PERISH THE THOUGHT!), where reagents were required and used to first put a spell into your spellbook, after which they simply cost mana to cast. This more aligned with 1E DnD, where new spells could be researched or even created by the player, but could often cost very specific ingredients for the learning.

Challenge of the Five Realms IMO handled reagents the best: reagents were required to learn and cast the spell, but were destroyed only when (if) one of your characters failed at learning it. Another option was to create a magic ring with several charges of the spell. This destroyed the reagents regardless of success, but casting from a ring had an advantage of not using mana (which was rather slow to regenerate, and the main quest had a time limit).

The problem with Ultima reagent system was that the number of reagent types was small, which made weak spells roughly just as expensive as the powerful ones. The Trazere duology had a rather unique magic system where you created your own spells by combining different effects, and each effect had a reagent associated. There was also no mana, so you could cast as many spells as you've created, with the downside that procuring new reagents wasn't just a matter of getting out of the dungeon. This made the spell cost progression much more sensible and balanced.

 

[baturinsky]

Ultimately, both reagent and Vancian casting make non-combat casting difficult to implement. You either learn silly spells that might only apply once in a blue moon, or you burn valuable materials simply because you couldn't find a way to flip a switch across a canyon.

I don't see a problem here. It makes magic non-mundane and balanced. IF you need a flip switched, let party archer shoot it, or rogue climb there somehow and switch it. And if they ALL fail, then it's time for mage to save their peasant assess.

 

[Mangoose]

...
Sounds like enemies that would easily engage you in combat.

Nah, they'd just devour you in a matter of seconds.

So I guess you can't avoid combat.

Wrong again - you must avoid it as it's automatic gameover. Just like with the traps, only worse.

*this is my last post on the subject, derailing has gone far enough.

So it's combat against an omnipowerful enemy.

 

[Slow James]

So it's combat against an omnipowerful enemy.

That's a terrible oversimplification.

Is your local police department an omnipotent enemy? Of course not. Would any one single individual be able to fight off an entire city's guard singlehandedly? Nope. Not even with a freaking tank, as can be seen on World's Craziest Police Chases 97 or whatever.

Just because something is guaranteed to kill you doesn't make it omnipotent. It just makes your character not a god.