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Gameplay built around auto-resolving combat

baturinsky

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Apr 21, 2013
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Soo, I have a game prototype here
http://batur.pbworks.com/w/page/86153830/Agency

Here is how it looks:
SpqBhMT.png


Gameplay was inspired with a simple idea: for some (me included) preparing for combat is fun, but combat itself is boring. So, let's make combat auto-resolving. And here is a working prototype of it. You assign toons on missions, look (in fast forward) how they do their thing and reap loot. You can see chance of winning beforehand and after it's done you can replay combat at normal speed from any point, see combat log, etc.

And it works (I think). But there are problems. Most important is - combat system. More specifically, how target of attacks (both for friends and foes) are determined. I'm using a stat named "bravery" which is a relative chance to catch the bullet. Tanks have it more, glass cannons less, and there are skills that manipulate this stat. See in-game pedia for details. And, again, it works, but it's too randomey and too abstract for player to understand and work with. I need something more intuitive, and probably less random.

Or maybe remake whole combat system from scratch - if somebody can give me an idea how it should work.

Other issue is the game campaign structure, though I already have some ideas how to improve it. Now you just get missions at random. I need something more structured and interesting. But still procedurally generated - I'm too lazy to hand-write it. I'm thinking about structuring missions as a long grid - "road" or "tower", so you start with only one row of missions unlocked, and unlock more by completing those adjacent to them.

Another question - how fine should I let tune and re-tune toons. Pimping up your characters is fun, but will it still be so if there are too many of them. Too much tuning can make game slow once you get dozens of chars online. Also, if I have equippable gear, and let move it from one toon to another at any time, it could encourage too much micro-management. So I will need some good mechanism to limit/discourage moving equipment from char to char too often.
 

J1M

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Some options for speeding configuration include limiting choices to a small number, or introducing "kits" similar to the design schematics in Alpha Centauri.

Logistics could play a part in adding depth to the bigger picture. It isn't enough to have the best warrior. He needs to be where the threat is. An interesting historical example is how Rome built lots of roads so their troops could respond to incursions faster.
 

Grimwulf

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Maybe I'm not too sober now, but I kinda fail to see how it differs from basic tower defence mechanics.

I think most of old tbs included auto-resolve feature. Disciples series, HoMM series and so on. Basically, you were given the option to watch AI vs AI battles or even skip them. TBS are arguably not all-about-fighting, so you could enjoy the building/resource/diplomacy and all the other aspects of the game.

Then we got Tower Defence games, which are certainly fun in their own small way, but I have yet to see a trully complicated, deep and engaging Tower Defence game.

And then *drum bass* we have Dominions series. If you wonder how does a perfect "game about battle preparations" look like, you should definetely check out Dominions series. The last version of Dominions 4 is widely considered the most balanced one. A bit of warning tho:
- The visuals are slightly better than fucking ASCII;
- You have to read a 400-page manual before even attempting to start playing;
- Once you dig it, you'll never stop playing.
 

baturinsky

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Yes, it's quite close to Tower Defence mechanics.

Yes, many games have auto-resolve, but they are usually very unclear about their rules. I tried to make auto-resolve with clear, intuitive, but deep rules... And looks like I was not successful. Yet.

I'll look into Dominions.
 

Ranselknulf

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Hmm... I think the issue with making "deep" autoresolve mechanics is the gameplay won't feel deep unless you get some sort of detailed information back after the autoresolve, or ideally be able to watch the effects of the automatic resolution.

Maybe an autoresolve game that lets you jump in and manually control certain aspects of the outcome when you think the situation isn't going ideally.
 
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Here's a good advice
Ripoff Be inspired by Tactics Ogre: March of the Black Queen (SNES) mechanics including loyalty, chaos/law and terrain advantages/disadvantages
It's a game built on auto resolve battles with only a few methods of managing the outcome.
 

laclongquan

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This mechanic is good but you need another supporting mechanic for the gameplay
The fun is in preparing for combat, right?
+ Preparing equipments. SO you need a mechanic for item hoard, and item crafting/shopping. Kinda like Suikoden 2's inventory but not Sui3. If you choose the craft route, there should be a mechanic to gather smiths, materials, recipes (we will go deeper later). If you choose the shop route, there should be a mechanic to gather/build shops and the ways to raise its shelved goods (build up merchant trade routes)
+ Choosing personel with approriate traits/skills. there should be a mechanic to gather recruits and trainers to teach skills (this is a huge hassle and need rebalance).
+ Maintanance: You need to have a cost to maintain all those shops, smithies, and troopers. Most applicable would be a gold cost. No worry if that cost is too high since it will eat up your hoarded golds, and force a higher and higher demand during late game.
 

laclongquan

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Procedure: Missions generated automatically
4 Type:
+Rescue a person or a group of person (for shoppers, smiths, or troopers)
+Raid (hit, loot, then run)
+Control lands (hit, then hold with a group of troops semipermanently)
+Patrol (it might alternate between 0-loot Raid, or 0-person Rescue, but keep your influence zone)
 

Norfleet

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Why not create an entire auto-resolve game where you set a whole whackload of customization options for your faction and dudes, and then the entire game plays itself according to the options you picked? It would be a truly Russian game: You don't play it, it plays you.
 

baturinsky

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I think I went from the wrong direction. I should have go up-down, figure first what I want the strategic/campaign layer be, and then go bottom from that.
 

Destroid

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There's a few games in this genre around, notably Gratuitous Space Battles. Unfortunately it wasn't very good :(
 

zeitgeist

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Here's a good advice
Ripoff Be inspired by Tactics Ogre: March of the Black Queen (SNES) mechanics including loyalty, chaos/law and terrain advantages/disadvantages
It's a game built on auto resolve battles with only a few methods of managing the outcome.
I'd also recommend looking into this, it has a seemingly very simplistic method of unit control during the actual battle (you only get to choose the general tactic which pretty much means choosing which enemies they'll attack, and you can use cards that have various special effects like turning enemies to your side, shuffling them around and similar), but it's important to have the right party formations with units that work well together, to attack the right unit with the right unit, to build the characters properly etc.

 

PotatoElemental

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You might want to get some inspiration from Grand Strategy games like Europa Universalis or Hearts of Iron. After all, they are pretty much all about preparation, and the combat is auto-resolved.
 

baturinsky

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You might want to get some inspiration from Grand Strategy games like Europa Universalis or Hearts of Iron. After all, they are pretty much all about preparation, and the combat is auto-resolved.

Yes, but EU(4) is more an example of the problem with this approach. And the problem is insufficient feedback. When you are so distanced from the actual fight process/mechanics (in EU4 you mostly just see total army numbers, and assume that bigger number win), it's hard to understand why you win or lose, and what to do to win, except sending in more manpower.
 

PotatoElemental

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Oh, also - I know it's not the best example because of actual input, but it's not like you have full control over your troops - Last Remnant might be something you'd like to look into. It's got a lot of troops on your side, divided into squads, placed on the battlefield so they can flank each other, and there is a semi-automatic aspect to the resolution of fights. But the most important thing is how they are trained, how they are equipped, and in what formation they are.
 

SCO

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Last game i played like this was disciples 2. It was nice that you could keep heroes but not so nice you couldn't keep the troops.
 

Dickie

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Another game I played which was similar to Ogre Battle on the SNES is Sould Nomad and the World Eaters. I remember it having a little bit more depth to it in that you could unlock formations that gave different bonuses and allowed different numbers of troops. It's been many years since I played it, though.
 

jagged-jimmy

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I got an idea of having different classes influence combat without having a common underlying combat system.

So before a mission you have to assign a certain number of people, which balances the fight (Encounter X - max number is Y dudes)
Now, by assigning certain classes you choose a strategy. I am thinking about initiative based friend/foe/friend/foe...

Examples of ideas (need balancing and testing, of course):

Fighters are always targeted first, maybe until they get 25% hp dmg (think: they rush the enemy first)
Assassins do a crit hits every other turn, but are low hp (so 1 turn - crit dmg, next turn "move"/no dmg)
Alchemist/Shaman stuns a foe every turn, but does not do any dmg
...
Barbarian/Berserker for dualwield, dmg dealing
Hunter/Archer for ranged attacks

Basically every class has certain rules, what it does in combat (like chess figures).

You could also add buffs/debuffs by having certain classes in the "group":

Fighters add defense (think: front row formation) - after one fighter dies - front row broken - buff vanishes, etc. etc.
Cleric/Shaman/Alchemist - buffs soldiers with drugs/spells etc. before the combat
and so on.

"System" can be simple: HP/DT/DMG per class.
 

oscar

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Dominions 4 is all about combat preparation, you script your units behaviours, spell orders etc but can't actually directly control battles.
 

baturinsky

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"System" can be simple: HP/DT/DMG per class.
This is exactly what I have, with fourth common stat being "bravery" which is a chance to be targeted. And there are other abilities that give party-wide buff, healing ability, ways to manipulate bravery, counter attacks, etc.
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
One game I enjoyed with auto-resolving combat was a text MMOTBS called Archmage. There is a fan remake (the re-incarnation, not sure if it's still active) and combat revolved around properly stacking creatures. Each creature had a power rank, and received a multiplier to that rank based on whether they were melee, ranged or flyers. They were then stacked in order based on power rank * the number of creatures you had and attacked each other based on that order. Much of the strategy revolved around setting up your own creatures to minimize damage from the enemy while maximizing your own. IE: you wanted ice elementals near the bottom, where they would hit red dragons (who had a weakness to cold) but not near the top where stuff like red dragons and chimeras would use fire breath and melt the shit out of them. There was no aggro mechanic or anything, but at the same time the system would need some modifications before it's fit for smaller scale combat.

edit: yup, still active
http://www.the-reincarnation.com/
 

zeitgeist

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Like FFXIII and Dragon Age 1? Or more like a skin/objectives for the LOGO programming language?
I'm not actually sure how it worked in FFXIII, I just looked it up and it seems it has gambits similar to FFXII, which I liked, since they were also tied into character progression and customization (IIRC you didn't get all the commands right at the start). I don't have any strong preference towards either that or a more complex pseudocode (that you'd have to actually write yourself or assemble from building blocks like in those robot games that I forgot the names of), I'd probably find both systems and anything in between interesting.
 

J1M

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Like FFXIII and Dragon Age 1? Or more like a skin/objectives for the LOGO programming language?
I'm not actually sure how it worked in FFXIII, I just looked it up and it seems it has gambits similar to FFXII, which I liked, since they were also tied into character progression and customization (IIRC you didn't get all the commands right at the start). I don't have any strong preference towards either that or a more complex pseudocode (that you'd have to actually write yourself or assemble from building blocks like in those robot games that I forgot the names of), I'd probably find both systems and anything in between interesting.
I meant FFXII.
 

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