Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
I'm more about the core systems myself. Story and atmosphere are nice, but I'd rather play Knights of the Chalice than Planescape Torment most of the time.
 

mastroego

Arcane
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
10,250
Location
Italy
The longer answer (Because let's not go all Roguey in here)

A lot of the problems I had with BG2 had more to do with specific design choices than with the overall style of the game. Avoiding (or ignoring) the problems I had with it while still having a similar style of game is pretty easy, IMO. Taking the specific things I listed a long time ago:
.........
Even though I had those problems with BG2, my job as a lead designer and project director is not to create content that appeals specifically to my tastes. Obviously I would have a difficult time making a game that I *disliked*, but I have (and continue to) push for elements I feel that players will ultimately enjoy even if I'm not super thrilled about it. That's my job.

Seems to me that he is DEFINITELY not the right man for the job (or he was, in that he pulled a successful kickstarter with the BG2 nods).

Also I want to address two specific arguments.

* Saving Imoen is actually not an imposition.
He probably doesn't even remember since he dislkes the game and didn't replay it dozens of times like the actual fans did.
Basically you can ignore the whole Imoen issue and just follow the lead to Irenicus. Plenty of dialog choices along those lines.
Also, this could justify different approaches, RP-wise: if you really were interested in the rescue, you would hurry no matter what, if you were "only" after Irenicus, you'd feel justified taking your sweet time to prepare.

* The "Quest density" argument again shows that he can only reason in schematic terms and utterly fails to understand the very things that made the game GREAT.
Even its "unevenness" in quests' distribution contributed in making the setting and the story feel more alive and real.
Once you arrive in the city everything is new, you can go anywhere because it's designed as a CITY more than a Game-Chapter-Hub, you're FREE to explore it, and it's only reasonable that you can meet people and do a lot of stuff from there.
Later the plot focuses, and things tend to converge towards the climax.
(that said, you could still do like I often did, that is: save Imoen almost immediately, and have more "quest density later". Yes, Spellhold was harder)

Actually this reminds me of the old Lord of the Rings argument.
The clueless "technicians" and scholars of narrative structure insisted that as a novel it was horribly structured and incredibly uneven.
And possibly they were even right: the starting chapters are very slow and long (they might even seem pointless to some but they're not*), then you often lose sights of key characters for hundreds of pages... the book didn't basically follow any of the established rules a "good" novel was expected to adhere to.

Yeah, you get it: LotR was not "balanced"!
Yet, well, you know how that one turned out.

*They're NOT pointless because the very detailed "uneventful, pleasant, comfortable if slightly boring" feeling of the domestic life will resonate in the mind of the reader in a very real sense when the characters long for home while facing the dangers of their adventures.
 
Last edited:

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
Not really, thats what Sawyer always does. If you engage him on something questionable he says you get a much bigger answer.
I started putting together a VD style post showing all the amusing changes in tone from his earlier outspoken "loathe" and "dislike" stuff... but I just realised I can't face discussing Sawyer any more, just ran out of steam :). God knows how Roguey manages it.

So I'll just leave it there.

I don't argue that there aren't changes in tone. Its just Sawyer has always done that. Making a small comment that comes across snarky/whatever then expanding on it when confronted.

Thats forum sawyer since ~1999 (I think, when was he employed?)

I know a few people that weren't big fans of him back on the Interplay forums either for similiar things.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Josh doing the rounds again

Firstly a no-brainer answer regarding why companions cost money

J.E. Sawyer said:
Making them NOT cost money would give a bigger advantage to people who don't use the OEI-written companions, since you could make a six-character party in the first town. You could also freely use them as fodder with no consequence. The adventurers aren't going to be outrageously expensive to hire, but we do want there to be some cost to them.
 

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
Josh doing the rounds again

Firstly a no-brainer answer regarding why companions cost money

J.E. Sawyer said:
Making them NOT cost money would give a bigger advantage to people who don't use the OEI-written companions, since you could make a six-character party in the first town. You could also freely use them as fodder with no consequence. The adventurers aren't going to be outrageously expensive to hire, but we do want there to be some cost to them.
Maybe instead there should be some trade off involving per-combat experience points.

:troll:
 

Seaking4

Learned
Joined
Sep 4, 2014
Messages
362
I only like his IWD1 Soundtrack (which his brother also worked on) and some of the NWN tracks. The rest is completely banal stuff.
I like the main NWN theme. The only one I remember from that game.



Having recently replayed the NWN OC I can say that the soundtrack is decent. It's nothing to write home about or listen to outside of the game but it does the job. It's a bit better than what I've heard from PoE (although that is admittedly very little).
 

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,332
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
J.E. Sawyer said:
Making them NOT cost money would give a bigger advantage to people who don't use the OEI-written companions, since you could make a six-character party in the first town. You could also freely use them as fodder with no consequence. The adventurers aren't going to be outrageously expensive to hire, but we do want there to be some cost to them.

Is there some competion between players who don't use developer companions, and the people that do? Such thinking about advantages or disadvantages is grossly flawed. But anyway, making a six character party in the first town, yes, that's the idea. If I can, I would hak the files to start with 6 PCs and bypass the adventurer hall mechanic altogether. I've been playing cRPGs for too long to care about balance terrorists wringing their hands in concern and holding certain standard gameplay features hostage.

Take that, bicycle boy!
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,799
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Sawyer vs Shadenuat Round 2!

What your wizard learns and puts in his or her grimoires is completely up to you. It's pretty common in A/D&D to include minor variations on existing spells that have different targeting rules, different AoEs, different damage types, etc. Nothing forces a player into learning Magic Missile and Mordenkainen's Force Missiles, for example.

And from a purely practical perspective, we can't have every spell in a wizard's arsenal contain unique mechanics. There's always going to be some overlap between various effects.

On Invisibility

Selective invisibility in combat usually leads to a huge number of bugs, but I'll talk to Tim about it. The more likely outcome would be an ability for rogues that allows them, specifically, to turn invisible once combat starts.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
They couldn't get per-character stealth to work properly? That's not good.
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,955
Location
Russia
Damn he used "You didn't give me enough money" card. I have nothing. No ice daggers generating in chars hands and then landing on ground exploding whenever someone walks over them for me.

But hey, good to know rogues might get an update.
 

Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
Patron
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
13,514
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I haven't kept up with every single post in this thread. What i want to say is that I have complaints about PoE, but when compared to the IE games, the game is more comparable to BG/IWD more than BGII/IWDII. Yery a lot of people compare PoE to the sequels.
 
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
70
Josh and Roguey continue their socially inclusive dungeon crawl in...


Heroes of Might and Balance - A Josh Sawyer Adventure

Chapter 2 - Lair of the Tavitron


Josh pivoted around a descending axe, slashing his sword across an exposed flank. The bodies of his foes were piling up and he stumbled, almost losing his footing as he decapitated the last of the lizardmen. Roguey gave a bloodcurdling scream and dived between the legs of an advancing dwarf, slicing a dagger through his groin and leaving him writhing in agony.

"Take that you potential rapist!" smirked Roguey, applying the finishing blow to his throat.

And at last it was over. They were scratched and battered, with Josh suffering a nasty gash to one huge thigh and Roguey oozing blood from his chainmail bikini, but both knew they'd got off lightly. The lingering effects of petrification had slowed their assailants just enough to tilt the odds in their favour. Josh sighed as he surveyed the rest of the chamber: why did every dungeon crawl involve murdering so many dudes? Wouldn't it be great to sneak around avoiding combat and still get all the best treasure?

"We don't have time for this," he snarled at Roguey who was rifling through pockets, already sporting a looted ring shaped like tiny hands holding a red heart. "Let's see where this leads before reinforcements arrive."

They dashed across the hall towards the pink glow on the far side. Details became clearer as they approached, extensive carvings on the walls depicting fearsome beasts ripping off heads and chewing on severed limbs. The light emanated from a rough tunnel bored into the finished stone, looking less a creation of man than something gnawed and scratched into the Earth.

The sense of evil was palpable now and it took all of Josh's willpower to continue. But they were running out of options. Supplies were low and if an evil aura proved enough to deter them the Phylactery of Gaider would remain forever beyond their reach. Signalling for Roguey to follow, Josh stepped into the tunnel.

~~~

They advanced as stealthily as possible but loose gravel betrayed their every step. The tunnel twisted as it descended until the hall was out of sight behind them, the pink light seeming to ooze from the rocky ceiling above. Josh was now so afraid he could barely grip his blade. Roguey's breath came in short gasps as he fondled the black phallic charm he wore around his neck.

The tunnel opened up into a larger cavern, large rocks strewn across the floor. No sooner had they stepped inside when a tremor shook the ground, throwing them to their knees. With a mighty rumble a huge stone door crashed down behind them, sealing them in impenetrable darkness.

"Serpents! Tentacles! Foul beasts!" screamed Roguey.

The next moment he felt it too, something slimy and moist rubbing against his lower leg. With a cry he leaped as far as he could, preparing a light spell before he even landed. This was their only chance, without light the slithering tentacle monsters would surely consume them.

He rushed through the spell, concluding the incantation with a confident flourish of his muscular arms. A buzzing sound filled the room as a murky globe flickered into existence, strobing light in all directions. Not what he was expecting, but better than nothing. And the beast was revealed.

There were no serpents or tentacles. Just a small rounded ball of orange, two tails wagging like an enthusiastic hound, long tongue licking a cowering Roguey's ankles and leaving a slimy trail of mucus. It trotted over to Josh and began slobbering on his calf again. He realised the pervasive feeling of evil had disappeared.

"Just a tavitron," he exclaimed in relief, extending a hand to help Roguey up. "Never seen one this far North, but I'd heard they could manipulate emotions in self defense - this one seems pretty powerful. Trouble is, once they've bonded like this you're stuck with them."

"Guess we've got a pet then," added Roguey, scratching it gently above its single eye. It gave a rumbling purr of pleasure but suddenly jumped back, spinning around to face the other side of the cavern.

"Down!" yelled Josh, dropping just in time to avoid the assassin's dart. Summoning all his energy he engaged his mighty leap ability and flew across the room, sinking his sword into the would-be killer before he could even fire again.

"Thank the Gods for 'per encounter' abilities," he muttered, dropping to his haunches and examining the hooded corpse. Sure enough, tucked into a pouch he found the parchment he was expecting. His face, his name, the terms of the deal. And the familiar signature: the mark of Cain.

~~~

It was later that night when Roguey broached the subject. Their campsite was a cosy scene, the tavitron curled up at Josh's feet and Roguey on the other side of the fire, quill in hand, the manuscript of Josh Sawyer's Words of Wisdom open in his lap.

"So what happened with you and Cain? Just the usual white boy problems or something more interesting? Latent homophobia? Repressed sexual tension?"

"You're a laugh a minute aren't you," he growled. "Maybe I should have left you to that rape squad of trolls last week."

"Another entry for the chapter on rape fixation" sniffed Roguey, scribbling away as Josh's thoughts turned again to Cain. The sleep spell on the other party members. The backstab which failed to find its mark, allowing a wounded Cain to escape.

"He was the leader of the first adventuring party I joined," Josh muttered eventually. "Let's just say there was room for only one alpha male in the group."

"Indeed," came a silky voice from the shadows behind Roguey. A slim figure in dark robes stepped into the light. "And you betrayed him."

Josh leaped to his feet, fumbling for his sword.

"Cain!"

~~~

Next time: The Wrath of Cain

Chapter 1 here
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
". Everyone hated the extra bookkeeping. "

HOLY FUCK! Your players are lazy stupid pisses shitheads if adding up xp was considered 'extra bookkeeping'. FFS


"you cannot simply tell your GM "screw the story: we've decided to roam in the forest collecting ingredients and honing a bit our skills fighting wildlife"
\
\WTF not? Is the DM a fukkin' nazi who needs full fukkin' control? The whole point is to give players the feeling of reedom. YoU can, if you are a decent DM, 'guide' them towards story and adventures but you should NEVER force them into it. That's one of the big weaknesses of any CRPG including FO, BG2, PST, or any other. WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU LIMIT PNP IN THE SAME FUKKIN' WAY?!>?



"nextgen consoletard who needs his achievement popups as validation for what he just did being awesome, or a codexer supposedly liking challenge in itself and laughing about instat gratification idiots? 'cos whining about no xp from combat sounds a lot like the latter to me."

WAIT. Did you just called someone who wants combat xp NEXT GEN? Combat xp which has been a part of RPGs since it was originally created is fukkin' NEXT GEN? ARE YOU ON FUKKIN' CRACK? Combat xp is as old skool as it gets. FFS



"Of course, you do use lower level spells when you run out (which you rarely do), but then that's the case in PoE as well."

\Only if you are a wuss who rests every 10 seconds. FFS And, there's plenty of awesome low level spells thata re very sueful at hugh levels in DnD. FFS But, of course, they shouldn't be , by and large. be more sueful than higher level spells. You forgot chroamtic orb, btw, an extremely useful 1st level spell - arguablu better than magic missle depending on target - since it cans tone or outright kill its victim as a level 1 spell. HOLY FUK SHIT.


"You don't need to hope. Unless the BETA is completely misleading here, non-combat solutions will be way more diverse and recurring than in any IE-game. Not that that's saying a ton, but there you have it."

But, will it BE donme in a meaninful legit way that one would want to use it? I mean, with the fukkin' ogre, the big non com,bnat way to complete him, is to get him to leave the area. BIG FUKKIN' WHOOP. So, I'll just send him to steal and harass some other poor innocent farmer? FUCK THAT. Or will I have to bribe someone to get them to stop fighting me? FUCK THAT.

On top of that, this game is combat heavy as per Obsidian themselves. You damn well should be rewarded for it.


"I really disliked being forced to go find Imoe"

You are an idiot. Youa ren't forced to go find Imoen. You are 'forced' to either go find Imoen OR to hunt down the fukkin' mage who kidnapped you, stole your goodies, torturted you, raped you, mocked you, and threatened you with worse. FFS



"I like the main NWN theme. The only one I remember from that game."

NWN's music is almost uniformly awesome. Maybe one or two are subpar but they are the exception not the rule.



"Selective invisibility in combat usually leads to a huge number of bugs,"

Fix the bugs, and do it right. If BG can do it right. Hell, if games even older than BG could do it right so can you. Or get an engine that actually works. LMAO Lazy git.



QUESTION: Why is WL2 - a game I'm gonna be able to play for 'free' (through PE) looking to be better than PE.

It's hilarious I spent $250 on PE and the best thing I'm getting out of it ANOTHER game. Oh, and dwarves. LMAO
 

SuicideBunny

(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
8,943
Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
WAIT. Did you just called someone who wants combat xp NEXT GEN? Combat xp which has been a part of RPGs since it was originally created is fukkin' NEXT GEN? ARE YOU ON FUKKIN' CRACK? Combat xp is as old skool as it gets. FFS
learn to actually comprehend what you read, volly.
 

imweasel

Guest
QUESTION: Why is WL2 - a game I'm gonna be able to play for 'free' (through PE) looking to be better than PE.

It's hilarious I spent $250 on PE and the best thing I'm getting out of it ANOTHER game. Oh, and dwarves. LMAO
:lol:
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
The accusation was prefering combat xp was a next gen loser yet combat xp is as old skool as it gets. I comprehended just fine. Comprende?
 

SuicideBunny

(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
8,943
Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
The accusation was prefering combat xp was a next gen loser yet combat xp is as old skool as it gets. I comprehended just fine. Comprende?
the actual meaning is that combat xp (especially the way they are done in computer rpgs) are essentially a form of instant gratification, just like shitty nextgen achievements. just because something is oldschool, doesn't mean it's automatically good or viable. you know what's even more oldschool rpg than combat xp? using gold to upgrade your char and not having any xp at all.
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,426
Seems to me that he is DEFINITELY not the right man for the job (or he was, in that he pulled a successful kickstarter with the BG2 nods).

Also I want to address two specific arguments.

* Saving Imoen is actually not an imposition.
He probably doesn't even remember since he dislkes the game and didn't replay it dozens of times like the actual fans did.
Basically you can ignore the whole Imoen issue and just follow the lead to Irenicus. Plenty of dialog choices along those lines.
Also, this could justify different approaches, RP-wise: if you really were interested in the rescue, you would hurry no matter what, if you were "only" after Irenicus, you'd feel justified taking your sweet time to prepare.

* The "Quest density" argument again shows that he can only reason in schematic terms and utterly fails to understand the very things that made the game GREAT.
Even its "unevenness" in quests' distribution contributed in making the setting and the story feel more alive and real.
Once you arrive in the city everything is new, you can go anywhere because it's designed as a CITY more than a Game-Chapter-Hub, you're FREE to explore it, and it's only reasonable that you can meet people and do a lot of stuff from there.
Later the plot focuses, and things tend to converge towards the climax.
(that said, you could still do like I often did, that is: save Imoen almost immediately, and have more "quest density later". Yes, Spellhold was harder)

Actually this reminds me of the old Lord of the Rings argument.
The clueless "technicians" and scholars of narrative structure insisted that as a novel it was horribly structured and incredibly uneven.
And possibly they were even right: the starting chapters are very slow and long (they might even seem pointless to some but they're not*), then you often lose sights of key characters for hundreds of pages... the book didn't basically follow any of the established rules a "good" novel was expected to adhere to.

Yeah, you get it: LotR was not "balanced"!
Yet, well, you know how that one turned out.

*They're NOT pointless because the very detailed "uneventful, pleasant, comfortable if slightly boring" feeling of the domestic life will resonate in the mind of the reader in a very real sense when the characters long for home while facing the dangers of their adventures.


Considering Sawyer has a penchant for designing towns with nothing more than a few annoying fedex quests (see Kuldahar, Easthaven, Targos, Wandering Vilage and various other encampments in the IWD games), he should shut up about quest density in Athkatla. Hell, for one thing, other than the various "big" quests, Athkatla could in fact really have used more to do.

Maybe Sawyer has worked out a formula that a town must have one Fedex quest per 7 named characters and one main storyline quest per 25. :roll::lol:
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
4,189
RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
I'm with Volourn on this one. I mean they are make a game so nostalgia-driven they outright copy the class list of the DnD third edition without thinking if the classes fit their game-style. Sometimes trying to shoehorn them into different archetypes like making rogue a DPS deal dealer instead of skill-specialist and omitting classes that would fit into their setting like someone who's related to gunpowder-based weaponry, a tinker or a sniper of some kind. Yet they just arbitrarly cut-off one of the oldest RPG features for doubtious reasons. Difficult to track player's power level? Perhaps in open-world game like Morrowind or M&M, but in something similar to BG everyone will just kill monsters that are in a way of the objectives so if sub-quests are not a problem for you then neither should monsters that are around these, random encounters never gave you enough XP to change anything in BG. Diplomats will feel cheated? Just roll in XP from enemy encounters into a reward for choosing a non-violent solution. They will be cheated either way because of they loose on loot. Stealth characters will feel cheated? Why would anyone just sneak past monsters in party-based RPGs where everyone is balanced around combat? Sneaking is only a viable choice in single-character RPGs where your PC might suck in combat. They should make-up their mind on what kind of game they want to make, a BG sequel or their perfect RPG. If the former they shouldn't arbitrarily eliminate well-liked features if the later they should stop being slaves to DnD. Not every RPG needs a "nature loving guy with a bow" class or "angry warrior" class and I'm sure as hell a western RPG doesn't need a martial artist. Not every RPG need elves and one of their new races didn't have to be a combination of a tiefling and a genasi. The things I liked the most so far a ciphers, chanters, Aumaua and soul related stuff. You know the parts where they decided to do they own thing instead of trying to be generic for nostalgia's sake. I hope they'll realize that doing their own shit is the way before making a sequel.
@SuicideBunny
The same could be said about combat loot or gold, should Sawyer remove gold for combat too? Besides xp for combat is not exactly like achievement since you don't get achievements for doing more of the same but for doing something special like fulfilling some bonus objectie, often they just give you them for advancing the main storyline. You know what they remind me off? Xp for doing quests. Sawyer should get rid of this next-gen instant gratification shit.
 

dukeofwhales

Cipher
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
423
Combat itself is much more readable and a little bit more responsive now - still not readable responsive enough, though, which makes me suck at combat much more than I should; Obsidian could learn a thing or two from Beamdog here (I cannot believe I wrote that)

Out of interest, what did Beamdog do to improve readability in the BGEEs? I only played BGEE, once, back at release when the only enhancements were a blurry UI and THAC0 displayed in the inventory and don't remember any changes from stock BG2.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
3,585
Location
Motherfuckerville
I just played BG2 with SCS. Literally finished it two days ago. The number of times I used spells below 6th level after getting half-way through the game is abysmal. Only spells I used somewhat often were:

While I won't argue that lower level arcane spell slots (especially level 1 to 3) diminish in effectiveness as you progress towards the endgame, they still deliver a decent amount of value if you use them correctly.

Mirror Image is literally useless.

Far from it. While it's nowhere near as powerful in SCS2 as it is against vanilla AI, it still retains a good deal of usefulness as a combat protection that negates hits. While casters in SCS2 have numerous countermeasures against Mirror Image, many encounters don't have casters, allowing it time to shine. Things like golems, umber hulks, giants, some fiends, illithids, vampires, high-level fighters, elementals, and whatnot all have to go through the protection the "hard" way.

And even against enemies that have countermeasures, it can be an effective tool in baiting the aforementioned measures out or otherwise manipulating the AI. If my Fighter/Mage casts Mirror Image to ward against attacks but an enemy mage casts True Sight, Oracle, Remove Magic, or whatnot it's still a favorable trade. My character has expended a lower level spell slot than the one the enemy caster used and the enemy spellslinger was occupied for a round, not being able to attack/debilitate the party.

Obviously this spell has a far higher utility to parties with Fighter/Mages, but Mirror Image still serves well to protect squishier mages in times when Stoneskins are in short supply or are inadequate.

All damagespells except the missiles are as well

-Melf's Acid Arrow still serves to effectively disrupt any caster it can hit. Sure, higher level mages, with their bewildering amount of spell/combat protections will scarcely be touched by this spell, but throughout a full playthrough there are ample amounts of divine casters and lower level mages who can be effectively stymied by one cast of this spell (with no save opportunity and no ability to Vocalize, because it relies on damage-based disruption) which also, as a bonus, is useful against non-casters as well.

-As previously mentioned, Skull Trap was extremely good at dealing out lots of magical damage. While straight damage is done better by Abi-Dhalzim's Horrid Wilting, Skull Trap can certainly do the job on the cheap. Plus, you can't stick Horrid Wilting in Sequencers nor have it lie in wait as a trap.

-Sunfire is also excellent as it, like Dragon's Breath, ignores creature's magic resistance making for an extremely effective (and flavorful) remedy for any problems related to drow elves (or any other magic resistant critter not immune to fire).

Lower level debilitating spells aren't receiving enough credit either. Many of the group "Save or Else" spells stay remarkably effective. Web, Glitterdust, Slow, Emotion, and Chaos can all stay relevant into Throne of Bhaal. While they'll be of little help against some of the highest-tier foes, replete with hard-coded immunities or lattices of spell protection, almost everything else is fair game to one or more of these powerful debilitations.

To illustrate, imagine a group in which six foes are vulnerable to one of these spells and within the spell's area of effect. Even if the foes all have "boss-like" saving throws (low single digits, in this case a Save vs Spells of 4), a quick binomial probability calculation says there's only around a probability of .26 that the player reaps zero value from the spell, that no enemies are effected. More realistic saves (Save vs Spells of 8) results in a probability of less than .05 of no creature being effected from the spells. Considering that some spells carry innate saving throw penalties, that some have longer durations forcing multiple saves, or that many spells will often effect more than six creatures, these spells can still greatly effect a battlefield.

And then there are some low-level spells that are outright all-stars, like Spook, Haste, Melf's Minute Meteors, Stoneskin, Fire Shield, and Teleport Field.

Scaling or no scaling, the usage of low level spells in high level IE-combat was incredibly restricted.

Usage of lower-level spells in lategame BG2 is mostly restricted by immunities, be they hardcoded or earned through spell casting or item usage. It's not so much that the spells become useless in as much as demons and demigods aren't going to be fazed by petty things like mental or movement-inhibiting effects.

Against things that aren't immunity-mongers, the spells do scale relatively well. Seeing as encounters that fit into this category are spread throughout the game, even in high levels, I wouldn't say the player is "incredibly restricted".

TL;DFR: I disagree with the assertion that low level spells become useless in the lategame of BG2, even with SCS2.

Sawyer's idea to convert restricted-use spells to being less restricted (Daily -> Encounter -> At will) is one of his few really great ideas.

It's an interesting idea but I think it's too early to say whether or not it will be good or bad.

For one, it sets a constraint on the utility or power level of any spells/abilities that will follow this sort of usability progression; abilities at will, even weaker ones, run the risk of breaking the game. They can often be the lynchpins of powerful "engines" or broken strategies tactics to obviate impediments that should have been challenging. The good news is that due to this increased scrutiny we are unlikely the see any stupidly spammable spells (dig that alliteration, yo). The bad news is that spells as a whole may feel weaker, deflated, and less satisfying because of the balancing. Having at-will Magic Missiles (or any other low level spell that scales reasonably well) would be pretty broken in D&D, especially at higher character levels. The Magic Missile equivalent in PoE might have to undergo a serious transformation, possibly for the worse, in order to fit into a system in which it will eventually be cast at-will.

Second, it's a pretty big change from Vancian Magic having the number of uses be tied to the spell itself rather than the number of available spell slots the player is willing to utilize.

On one hand, this could lead to some very good things. For one, spells are less likely to be be driven out of use by competition. Lots of spell levels in D&D games are dominated by a handful of top-tier spells with some situational magicks and some dismal dweomers that never see the inside of a wizard's mind. Think of how often Mirror Image, Acid Arrow, Web, and Stinking Cloud see use at Arcane Spell Level Two compared to Know Alignment, Luck, and Ghoul Touch. In a system where usage was tied to spell, there could actually be reasons to use those lesser spells. For instance, Web is capped at twice a rest, but Luck and Ghoul Touch are 3x per-encounter. That changes things a bit, and may encourage the use of relatively weaker spells. This is a good sort of balance, as it encourages variety and experimentation.

To tie things back into SCS2, the way High Level Abilities can be handled by one optional installation component is instructive of how moving away from Vancian spell slots can really boost the value of marginal spells. In vanilla BG2, no player would likely ever want to use many of the HLAs because they competed with valuable Level 9 Mage and Level 7 Divine spell slots. Was Energy Blades worth giving up a Time Stop, Wish, Chain Contingency, or Imprisonment? Was Storm of Vengeance really better than Gate, Nature's Beauty, Creeping Doom, or Greater Restoration? The SCS2 component turned HLAs into one-use spells that had only one-use per rest and completely ignored the spell slot system. Suddenly abilities like Energy Blades and Mass Raise Dead actually felt useful, because they didn't carry an obscenely high opportunity cost.

On the other hand, a spell use structure as this could lead to homogeneity in tactics and less interesting resource management strategy.

A critical mass of at-will and per-encounter abilities that have high utility across the spectrum of encounters and battles will start to seem extremely "samey" what with the player going through similar motions over a course of many fights. Though I doubt PoE would come close, systems without stringent strategic limitations run the risk of ending up like Dragon Age Orgins, in which every fight, sans bosses (highly scripted or highly exploitable), plays similarly. For all it's warts, Vancian casting serves as a pretty stromg bulwark against this sort of degeneration (provided one doesn't exploit resting).

I'm also a bit leery about the very idea of "per-encounter" as a limitation. I feel as though it may leads to non-choices, outside of prolonged battles. This merits an example. Imagine an encounter where the party has been hit by a Confusion spell and two members are running amok. The party mage is fine and so are a couple melee/ranged combatants. Our hypothetical mage so happens to have access to Dispel Magic. The player feels they may be able to beat this encounter without using it, though are unsure of the costs yet is certain that the encounter can be defeated with little-to-no costs if the Dispel is utilized.

In a D&D-like system, there's a bit of a decision. The Dispel Magic might be necessary in a later encounter, forcing the player to think ahead and make a more interesting choice. But if, in a PoE-like system, if that Dispel was per-encounter...well, the correct choice is obvious. I suppose "per-encounter" usage restrictions do make the player party less dependent on metagame knowledge, not being screwed in any given encounter because they failed to predict the (relative) need for a certain ability. But I still feel it runs the risk of spawning many boring non-choices that add little besides additional clicks/keystrokes. Oh, but wait...mages get to do stuff besides use their sling in low level trash fights! Totally worth it!

Yeah, that was a little sarcastic...

TL;DFR: I'm not particularly enamored of the spell usage mechanics nor do I hate them. Time will tell whether or not they work.
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
7,480
Location
Vigil's Keep
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
Out of interest, what did Beamdog do to improve readability in the BGEEs? I only played BGEE, once, back at release when the only enhancements were a blurry UI and THAC0 displayed in the inventory and don't remember any changes from stock BG2.
Characters' circles in IE games changed colors based on their status, but in a very limited way, Beamdog improved on this a bit (more colors for more statuses). They also added a 'current action' icon that is displayed on character's portrait (no icon character idle), which is a pretty useful feature.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom